Captain Black's dilemma

by **chrisbishop** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:24 am

Originally posted: MSN Forum 01/04/2004

It is a well-known fact that Captain Black is the Mysterons' main agent on Earth (if you don't then - what the hell are YOU doing on this forum!? :wink:

). But there is some mystery surrounding Captain Black. Is he really a DUPLICATE, or is he still human? There is two schools of thoughts on that subject - I tend to follow the second one, which says he is still human, albeit mind-controlled by the Mysterons. Okay, so you may say that for me, as a fanfic writer, I might consider it makes more interesting drama and gives more depth to the character when I write fiction - at least, the way I write it. But there are also other points that support that theory - which is shared by many.

For example, in the pilot episode, we don't see Captain Black being killed and duplicated - but it might be argued that we probably didn't see all that was going on in the MSV... You might also notice that Captain Black doesn't look like others Mysteron agents - where they look exactly like the originals they were copied from, he is pallid, and looks like half dead. His voice is that of the Mysterons - which isn't something he shares with the duplicates either. You might also wonder if he's retrometabolic too. They Mysterons always teleport him out of danger when there is need to. To protect him, obviously, but if he's retrometabolic, aside from being captured, what harm could befall him? We never saw him being injured anytime during the course of the series... As to why he would be mindcontrolled instead of a duplicate - it's still another question.

There might be other points - and it'll be interesting to debate over them here, like we previously did on the old forum. As it will be interesting to know what are your thoughts on what exactly Captain Black might be:

There is no bad answer; either of those two theories is as good as the other. Give us your thoughts on them.

by **DocBrown** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:27 am

He’s got to be a mind-controlled human, as I see it – for all the reasons outlined above, though funnily enough, it seems to me that it makes him rather more difficult to write for, not easier, since as noted above, his consciousness is that of the Mysterons. Almost all good writing is about understanding and interpreting human nature in such a way that the reader can identify with the characters, even when you’re putting those characters into scenarios that are literally out of this world – so how do you write for someone who by definition isn’t human?
Actually, it seems likely to me that he’s not so much mind-controlled as mind-replaced – which could explain why he looks half-dead, since the Mysterons are probably only providing his body with the minimum amount of brainpower necessary to prevent it from ceasing to function. Or perhaps their understanding of human physiology was poorly developed at the time they assimilated him (which it would have been, since he was the first one they’d encountered), and they did a second-rate job of it. (Incidentally, has anybody written a piece of fan-fic describing the events immediately following Black’s assimilation by the Mysterons? If not, then somebody ought to – there’s a good story there, covering the fate of the other two astronauts in the MEV and that of the fourth crewmember who would have remained in the mother ship orbiting Mars.)
In a sense, Black IS the Mysterons, isn’t he – an extension of their collective consciousness, providing them with the sensory apparatus necessary to deliver the data they need to formulate and execute their acts of revenge.
Presumably other mysteronised agents can’t do that: I’d guess they’re really nothing more than pre-programmed automatons, though I’ve often wondered whether they possess a conscious knowledge of what they are before they are “activated”. My guess would be that they probably don’t, but the original show never really addressed that point as far as I can remember. Many of them are obviously dropped into offensive mode at once, but others probably aren’t – the first example that springs to mind being Captain Brown. Did he know that he was working in the service of the Mysterons before his last comment to the World President that he played an excellent game of chess? I don’t think he did, but I could easily be wrong. One could argue that he must have known, because he himself would have had to choose the moment to detonate, having probably decided that an enclosed space would minimise the chances of the World President surviving. So many questions…
DocBrown

by **Marion W** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:28 am

Yes, I think I tend to go with the mind-controlled human scenario rather than the fully retrometabolised one.
I also think that part of the 'punishment' they metered out to Captain Black was a conscious knowledge of the horror of what he was doing - even though he has no will-power to stop himself. An aspect that some of the fan-fiction has chosen to develop.
Of course, it may just be that I am an evil sadist... :shock:

- or that they are, but I suspect they have a moral code of their own - which Black's attack violated - and that to them breaking that code deserves the direst punishment they can devise.

The Mysterons may have only just met human beings - with the men in the MEV - but I would guess they knew more about us than we did about them. They knew we had a curiosity to explore the universe ...(I'm quoting this from memory, so apologies if I get it wrong!). What is there to say they haven't retrometabolised other humans - who died naturally - and investigated us before this - to satisfy their curiosity? They obviously have the ability.
Or do they? I have also wondered if they can only perform the act of retro-metabolisation because they have sent Black to the earth and he is the conduit that enables them to use their powers here. That might also explain why they are so protective of him.
Once he is here and they can channel their powers through him, Black is the nerve centre for every Mysteron Agent. He might let them carry on as normal until they are needed - like Captain Brown did - but when he orders them into action - they cannot disobey him.

So many questions, so many options to so many solutions.... Like I said - a work of genuis!

Marion W

by **DocDenim** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:29 am

Yo!

Oh, this one is just a gold mine!

As I recall (and I wish I had it, but I don't) this is something I mentioned just before the last board evaporated: that being Captain Black's role in the War of Nerves, and if I can paraphrase myself, I believe I said something to the effect that the War of Nerves my just be Captain Black's 'fault'. Allow me to expound ....

We did discuss on a prior thread, that perhaps the Mysterons weren't paying a great deal of attention to what we-the-human-neighbours were up to, though they did seem to be aware of us to some degree; they weren't horribly surprised when the MEV turned up, but at the same time, didn't seem to have any idea what to expect out of us. (So, sorry Marion, we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think they'd been studying us particularly well.)

And as they didn't seem to know humans especially well, perhaps they chose Black to be their point-man so that they could pick his brain and learn a bit about how to better deal with us - as self-professed peaceful beings, perhaps they simply had very little idea how to go about conducting a War of any kind. To repeat one of my personal pet theories again, IF they happened to dive into Black's mind at a point where he was thinking about how 'we're our own worst enemies', then perhaps it struck the Mysterons as a cool notion to throw us back at ourselves - we, of course, having a very long history of and a great deal of experience with tribal infighting. It wouldn't hurt either that Conrad himself has quite a military background that could only prove useful for the Mysterons in the long term.

But I don't think that he's just a human 'shell' that they've commandeered - I think perhaps he's in there and conscious and aware of what's going on, but 'body-disconnected' - yes, a dreadful fate, but perhaps very useful as far as the Mysterons are concerned. (I'm thinking function rather than punishment, here.) A bit of speculation that amuses me, comes from thinking that Black serves as a kind of 'think-tank' and/or 'barometer' for them. I have to assume they can pull knowledge out of his mind (maybe they tap his subconscious for it) and once Conrad figures out what it is that they're planning to do with the knowledge - he's not stupid and he is obviously involved - his conscious mind can't help but react - and the Mysterons may well be able to 'judge' the merits of their scheme based on those 'human' reactions. This particular hypthesis does in some measure explain (to my satisfaction, anyway) why Captain Black would better serve the Mysterons' interests as a mind-controlled human subject than he would as a reconstruction.

And if that much may be true, then perhaps Conrad IS actually doing his best to ensure that the War remains a thing that Spectrum can counter. Maybe he's even caught on, and is feeding ideas and plots to the Mysterons that - while heinous enough in themselves - nonetheless go a long way towards keeping the casualties down and the conflict managable - Conrad having a certain amount of faith in his ex-colleagues' capabilites and a pretty good knowledge of their resources.

Hell of a game of chess to have to play, don't you think? Yes, a dilemma for Conrad for sure and that's putting it mildly. I happen to really feel sorry for the poor begger....I will one day pen a fan-fic to rescue him. (It's already vaguely plotted out.)

Let the debate roll!

Doc Denim

PS - I don't think they Always need Conrad. He wasn't much involved on the Moon, after all, at least not until Dangerous Rendezvous.

by **DocBrown** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:32 am

A gold mine indeed - and not least because of that very last point about the Moon. Black wasn't there, it's true - which might tell against the earlier-expressed idea that his presence is necessary for the Mysterons to function, were it not for the fact that the Mysterons were actively attempting to establish themselves there. We had a good old debate on the old forum about whether the destruction of Crater 101 was a tactical success or a failure in the long term, but we didn't actually (as far as I remember) touch on why the Mysterons built it in the first place.

Could it have been to act as some sort of booster station for their powers - perhaps as a backup plan in case Black got himself zapped? Or were they simply attempting to establish a colony there? The trouble with that idea is that if it's right, then why on earth did they draw attention to it by declaring independence before they were ready, so to speak? They could have waited until they'd assimilated all the personnel at Lunarville 7 (an easy enough task after they'd got the controller), then denied landing facilities to any spacecraft from Earth that attempted to investigate. By acting prematurely, they effectively scuppered their own plan by allowing the craft carrying Scarlet, Blue and Green to turn up, discover the complex and destroy it.

Going back a bit though, I'm also wondering whether the fact that the Controller DID attempt to distance himself from mankind's war with the Mysterons shows that mysteronised reconstructions do have an independent consciousness after all. A pre-programmed automaton would have done his job, kept his mouth shut and quietly worked away on behalf of his masters - but a fully-fledged Mysteron might feel sufficient indignation at the state of affairs that he might try to take independent steps to amend it. Perhaps he made that fatal tactical blunder precisely because Black wasn't there to stop him - who knows?
DocBrown

by **Marion** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:49 am

I knew I had seen a Captain Black thread somewhere on the forum.... :wink:

Reading my CS annuals recently - looking for interesting snippets for a friend - I actually read (for the first time :oops:

) a spread about Captain Black.
Now, I know the Annuals are not always considered accurate or any more likely than anything we can dream up - but I thought I would mention it, because it is really the ONLY thing I have found about Black that deals with 'what happened to him'.
The 1968 Annual says:
How Black died that fateful day over a year ago is a mystery. Why he died is certain.
A year ago a Zero X MEV landed on the red planet in search of the supposedly aline race. CB's mission was to offer peace and co-operation between the two planets. He failed. His attack on the Mysteron City became the first blow in a devastating war.
Without a doubt, CB acted hastily, without thought; possibly he panicked momentarily, and his nerve cracked. But whatever the reason for his unwarrented attack on the Mysteron City, it is no longer important. The fact is, after he and the MEV crew had witnessed the rematerialisation of the destroyed city, the Mysterons killed Captain Black, Spectrum Agent, and took control of his body.
...
Throughout the past months few have seen him. But certain facts about him have been assessed. It is known that he receives his orders from Mars, and that he executes them with the precision, skill and swiftness developed in Earth's service....
He moves from place to place so fast and so frequently that while Spectrum may be investigating a reported sighting of him, he might be thousands of miles away, effecting a new Mysteron threat.
He does not need food or sleep and is not susceptible to the elements - therefore he can move around to any place any time, so long as it suits the purpose of his masters.
CB is the spearhead of this onslaught. Spectrum realises this and throws every available minute into catching this key man.
This is Captain Black. Earth's enemy. The most dangerous man who ever lived... died... and lives again - by the power of the Mysterons! As far as it can be trusted - that makes it pretty clear that Black was killed - although still no mention of what happened to the other 2 crew members - and he is a construct in every sense.
I am sure there are anomalies even in the TV series, that would tend to disprove this. And certainly, for the purpose fo writing fan-fiction, it is far more interesting to have a mind-controlled man - who can understand and deplore what he does even as he is made to do it....
The debate continues.... and the jury is still out!

by **Clya Brown** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:20 pm

Conventional wisdom states that Black was indeed killed - see for example the first paragraph of this entry in no less a prestigious Web publication than Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Scarlet. On the other hand, I suspect the consensus of opinion here that Wikipedia has got it wrong - and since Wikipedia is supposed to be editable by anybody (something I didn't realise until very recently), I'm wondering whether one or more of the contributors to Spectrum Headquarters might like to correct this misconception by writing a better-informed article!

by **Captain Indigo** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:15 pm

Wouldn't be the first time something on the internet was wrong about CS. I came across two glaring errors on the same website when doing some research... Someone ought to do something about these amaturs!

(By the way, I do not consider myself to be in any way the fountain of all knowledge regarding Captain Scarlet, or any other SM series)

by **mb2000** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:02 pm

I would say that Black was mind-controlled as the other two members of the Mars mission (although not mentioned again) were probably not killed as the Mysterons said only one be controlled by them. Therefore, if they were not killed, they returned to Earth and would have reported anything strange in Black, such as his dying. So being mind-controlled would have allowed him to remain in his seat with the others not noticing any change.

As for him looking pale, thsi was shown to be his last human (his own) expression at the end of his scene, so its is possible his face just stayed that way when the Mysterons took control as they would have no need for him to smile or anything. Also expression are usually caused by emotions or feelings and with the Mysterons being machines (or whatever non-human form they have) they may not have any comcept of emotion or not know how it is shown in humans and assumed that was Black's normal look.

by **Scarlet Lady** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:33 am

I also think that Captain Black is mind controlled. I believe that a reason for his being pale might be down to him constantly fighting the Mysterons' hold on him, or that perhaps it's down to lack of care from his masters. Perhaps the Mysterons don't allow him to eat enough (grief! I sound like Mum!) or something along those lines.

by **FlicCity** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:32 am

I'm with the bodily-control group as well. It gives the character a pathos which is appealing... (okay, that sounded affected). And it would be a very effective punishment if he knows what he's doing, and can't change it.
I have my own ideas about what happened to the other people involved in the Martian Expedition -- after all, it's never actually been said that they returned from Mars...

by **Marion** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:00 pm

Actually, the same annual that gives the information quoted above also says:
The Zero X expedition returned to Earth to report the threat of the Mysterons. At Glenn Field, where the gigantic craft landed, Black vanished.
Now, we can assume -
1. That although it is never stated- the 3 men in the MEV were not the only members of the Zero X expedition crew - OR
2. We can assume that the other 2 men were returned okay - in order to warn the Earthmen of what to expect... (which must have made for an interesting ride home...

)
But someone was talking to Spectrum when the spaceship got back.
I think I am right in saying that in Manhunt it is commented on that - Black is alive then! (or something similar) when his picture turns up at Culver - so - maybe the Zero X crew bought what they thought was the body of a dead Conrad Turner back from Mars?
That would have freaked everyone out when it disappeared at Glenn Field...

by **chrisbishop** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:47 am

Correct me if I'm wrong... but in the first episode, "The Mysterons", didn't Colonel White say to the World President - while explaining what is going on - that 'Captain Black - a trusted man - disappeared on his return from the Mars expedition'? I'm SURE White would have mentioned that he was dead, at this point... Or he would have said 'the body of Captain Black revived and disappeared'. So, at this point, maybe Spectrum didn't have a clue of Black's whereabouts - either if he returned alive or dead, for that matter.

As for the 'He's alive' remark from "Manhunt" - yeah, well... It has been some weeks - or months? - since Black had given sign of life. Spectrum might have been suspicious that he was working for the Mysterons - without having any real clues of it, but his silence was pretty incriminating... Either that, or he was dead. Seeing him alive confirmed he was working for the Mysterons.

On another point - yes, I suspect a crew of THREE men wasn't enough to man the Zero X Mission - to Mars and back from it (Or maybe, since we don't know anything of that futuristic technology). And you're right, Marion, it certainly would be interesting to know what was going on during the trip back home, after that ominous encounter...

"Captain Black, Sir, what do you think about what just happened out there?"

*Blank stare*

"Do you think the Mysterons were serious?"

*Silence*

"You look pale, Captain... Why don't you lie down a bit? I still have to contact Earth to inform them of what happened...

...
...

Damned! Why won't that radio work now? It was perfectly all right a few minutes ago...

Something fishy is going on..." :shock:

I hear the inspiration faery tiptoing around... :angel)

by **Doc Denim** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:29 am

ah, yes...I've wondered about this before...so here's the quick cut and paste asking the question again:

****

I’ve also wondered exactly WHEN the War of Nerves was actually ‘engaged’. How long did it take for the MEV to return to Earth? Did the Mysterons pick it up and drop it back into Earth orbit by whatever mysterious means of teleporting things they have, or did they allow the MEV to make its own way back (which would likely be several months, space travel time) giving Black/the crew time to report the error of their ways and for the Earth to prepare for the consequences? No real time lapse is actually shown in the series (and wasn’t necessary, storyline-wise) but there must have been some sort of a ‘delay’ before the Mysterons actually announced their very first threat and carried it out.

****

And a Big Thanks to Marion for finding out that the crew of the MEV (I presume, with Captain Black) were returned to Glenn Field! I knew I hadn't imagined that bit! As to poor Conrad looking pale - I'd be pretty surprised if he hadn't! The rest of the crew might have realized he wasn't quite himself, but I'd be pale too if I'd thought I'd just started an interplanetary war. and it's not like they'd seen him die, and of course, had no real idea what the Mysterons were capable of, either. The point here being that Conrad does manage to move and function among human beings here on Earth, so I don't think it would have been too hard for the Mysterons to have kept his crew guessing as to Conrad's own 'state of occupation' for the return trip to Earth - however long that took. Perhaps the Mysterons even learned something about how to 'operate' their new agent during the return trip.

I would also have to presume that the news reached Earth well ahead of the MEV, especially if the crew were alive and able to do so - and therefore the planet/Spectrum and whomever else, would have had some (at that point) undetermined amount of time to make appropriate preparations for defence.

Would love to have some thoughts back on the timeline question.....

Doc Denim

by **Marion** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:20 pm

I don't think it would have been very difficult for the Mysterons to transport Black out of Glenn Field once the spacecraft landed, Chris. He might have been comatose - or catatonic - during the flight - he looks pretty 'freaked out' after the Mysteron City reappeared!
I am sure the trip home took a little time. They reckon 6 months to get there now - I think - I'm not an expert on this. During the trips to the Moon that Spectrum make, I am sure I remember someone saying something like - lucky it doesn't take a week to get there anymore (or it might even be from a fanfic - the old memory isn't what it used to be :oops:

) so presumably if they can do the moon in a few hours, Mars will that much closer too. (I am sure some of you brainy, numerate people out there can work out a formula that will give the exact time taken. (one train approaches a level crossing at 60 mph and takes 20 mins, whilst two men fill a bath from one tap, so: how long is the piece of string?... I never was any good at maths - you can tell, can't you? :grin:

)
Anyway - if Black was catatonic - but not dead - White's statement to the WP would still be true and so would the Manhunt comment - Oh, right he is still alive... etc etc...
I'll shut up now... :oops: