Mary Sues?

by **Kambei** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:14 am

Okay, let someone who has read an enormous amount of fan fiction (including slash- I have a couple of the original Grope Star Trek Slash Zines somewhere!) from a very wide variety of series/films comment here.

I think that there is very little in the way of Mary-Sue/marty Stu Captain Scarlet fan fiction around is for several reasons:

1) The stories on this site tend to be very well written by people who actually understand both the series and the characters

2) There is not that much CS or NCS fan fiction out there. Trust me, I have done extensive searches for it, and this is the main site.

3) You guys and ladies are NOT that obssessed. Try going to some of the Star Wars/Trek forums sometime. They tend to be obssessed over the tiniest details. You would be hoorified over how many Mary-Sue characters end up with Luke Skywalker as the romantic interest. Same with Trek and the Captains/First Officers.

4) The people writing on this site have a sense of humour.

by **hazel** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:31 pm

Kambei - I hear and applaud you!
Two of the other sites I frequent are FanFiction.net, where the dross by far outweighs the good stuff and Mary Sues abound (if you think Star Trek is bad, have a look at Harry Potter fic sometime), and what I might term my 'sanity' site, Godawful FanFiction, where the worst of the worst is showcased. Someone on GAFF popularised the term "Sueage" for the existence of Mary Sues in all fandoms and the tendency to write them. Hence: a bad-fic author is committing Sueage.
Some Mary Sues are tolerable, and some are even pretty good, but I would have to say that the majority are awful. In my own story, Back to Basics, I really tried to write a Sue, but when it came down to it, I couldn't do it, and ended up with a self-insert instead. The line between the Mary Sue and the Self-Insert is a fine one, but important. Well, I would say that, wouldn't I?

Website · by **Sage** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:31 pm

Ah yes, 'the pit of voles'; a blot on the literary landscape. I really read much there, but the Thunderbirds section is plaugued with Mary-Sues. Which is a shame because there is so much good writing in there amongst the horrors.

Godawful fanfiction is great

Have been there a couple of times. Also very fond of 'fanficrants' on livejournal.

Oh yes, I read that; excellent.

by **Carrie** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:23 pm

Kambei, some very nice comments you made there. The Quality Controllers at Chris's site work very hard to ensure that only the best stuff gets in here... :wink:

by **Kambei** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:31 pm

Hazel, I have read some of the Harry Potter Fan Fiction. After doing so I just sat on my chair, rocking backwards and forwards sucking my thumb, dribbling and giggling insanely. The writers of that stuff are really scary! I would rather fire a missile from an MEV at an unknown city than try to tallk to that lot.

by **Kambei** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:33 pm

Mind you, sitting on my chair, rocking backwards and forwards sucking my thumb, dribbling and giggling insanely is normal for me :grin:

by **Rhapsody Angel** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:30 am

I'm jumping in a bit late, but I agree with whoever said that a Mary Sue isn't a bad thing if he character is well handled. Actually, I rather admire people who have the courage to show their fondest dreams to the world, even if the writing isn't very good. I'm the last person to jeer at someone for dreaming and sharing a fantasy. It takes courage to hold yourself up and risk Net-wide humiliation. And some Mary Sue fan-fic writers have genuine talent or at least tell a good story; with time and growing confidence, they'll probably be able to give up the Mary Sue crutch. As for the rest, at least they're reading ,writing, and thinking.

No, there are no Mary Sues in any of my published stories. Maybe someday, maybe never. :grin:

by **Marion** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:11 am

Can I be really bitchy here and say that, although Rhapsody Angel said:'As for the rest, at least they're reading ,writing, and thinking.' I would dispute that. From what I have read of the 'Lesser-Mary-Sue' authors it would seem that more often than not:
1. the authors show that they have NOT read (or watched or studied) the original work they are 'fan-fictioning'. (Thinking specifically of The LOTR fics here. The films do not tell the whole story - however good they are. Presumably this applies to Potterdom too - but as (probably) the only Librarian who has never read a Harry Potter book, I can't comment on that :oops:

)
2. They often can't string two decent sentences together - so writing would only apply to what they are doing in the most general sense, i.e. making marks on a screen/paper etc.
3. I'm sure they would 'plead the headaches' if anyone asked them to actually think...

I hasten to say that NONE of the fiction on this site qualifies under any of the above criteria - but I too have trembled at the dross on Godawful Fanfiction and the like.

by **Rhapsody Angel** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:44 pm

You're right, Marion. I was thinking of better writers who've actually got some feel for the genre, not those from the "toss out anything and we'll call it good" system of education (which seems to be the norm these days). Those make me cringe, even if don't post criticism. Maybe I'm just trying to be optimistic; lately I've been marking graduate students' essays and writing some pretty harsh comments on their inability to grasp fundamental grammar, let alone do good research or resist the temptation to cut and paste. I'm just clinging to straws of hope! And very grateful that Captain Scarlet fan fic writers seem to be, as a rule, a cut above. :-D

by **Kambei** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:28 pm

I have been reading some graphic novels in my collection, and I came across an issue of the old Marvel Comics Star Wars series. Most Mary-Sue fiction is fan written, but this particular story was published as part of a professional run. Having read it again after a very long time, I really wish I hadn't. It is one of the worst examples of the genre we have been discussing.

Marvel Comics: Star Wars: Issue 89: I'll See You In The Throne Room

It is also in the collected edition: Star Wars: A Long Time Ago.....Volume 6: Wookie World. I would say look this up just to see how bad Mary-Sues can be

by **Prismatic Avatar** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:41 pm

For me, it's only a Mary-Sue if it gets out of control. Up to that point, it's a valid character. I have to fess up to what started as a self-insert, but she rapidly took on a life of her own and is now several light-years away from me. Apart from her temper. And her ability to open her mouth and say something utterly tactless. There we are still simpatico.

I have only come across one Mary-Sue in this fandom and I don't even think it was published. I sort of hope not, but that's me being mean. Everyone has their own idea as to what is and isn't a Mary-Sue, so the line is probably pretty squiggly when it's drawn!

by **Parker Gabriel** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:35 pm

For my contributions to the Captain Scarlet mythos, I have to treat the idea of a Mary Sue or a Marty Stew as though it were flat-out impossible. The character as we know him won't exist for another decade or so at the very least.

by **Parker Gabriel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:51 pm

With all this talk about Mary Sues and Marty Stews, I have to wonder: Just when and by whom was the term coined in the first place?

by **MMK** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:17 pm

I had not noticed this topic before :oops:

but as a fan fic reader that has read a lot of fan fics (241 and still going strong O-beer-O

) I will contribute to this topic.
I don't mind Mary Sues or Marty Stews. But as Prismatic Avatar has said:

Prismatic Avatar wrote:For me, it's only a Mary-Sue if it gets out of control.

Parker Gabriel wrote:With all this talk about Mary Sues and Marty Stews, I have to wonder: Just when and by whom was the term coined in the first place?

I believe I can help you there:

The term "Mary Sue" is taken from a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale,"[3] published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[4] The character in question was Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"). Smith's story poked fun at what she considered to be the unrealistic and adolescent wish-fantasy characters appearing in Star Trek fan fiction of the period. Such characters were, in general, original (non-canon) and female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canon adult characters. They also possessed unrealistic, unlikely, and often exotic skills and traits above and beyond those that would have been expected of any character in that particular series or of a conventional author surrogate.

Found it on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue).

Website · by **Sage** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:22 pm

Yes, that's the one, you beat me to it.

It should be noted that the majority of Mary Sues & Marty Stus actually have names which are generally quite fashionable/appealing by contemporary standards (fits with the wish fulfilment; naming the character something you'd like to be called), though often inappropriate or ostentatious for the setting of the story. That's often a good tip off that the character is a self insert.