Mysterons and human personality?

[Parker Gabriel]

I'll be working on a Captain Scarlet story, to be titled "The Identity Of Martin Stewart," in which an amnesiac Mysteronizee (that's a deliberately coined word; don't chew me out on it) who, like Captain Scarlet, was taken over between being killed and actually dying, but who, unlike Captain Scarlet, remembers neither his activities under Mysteron control nor his true identity once the Mysterons give him up, causes trouble for Spectrum personnel whilst under Mysteron control, then is released from the same. After the Mysterons have released this "John Doe," whom the Spectrum Organization refers to by the code name of Martin Stewart, Captain Scarlet's mission--to be accomplished with Dr. Fawn's assistance--is to figure out what his real name is.

[Marion]

Parker Gabriel said:
but who, unlike Captain Scarlet, remembers neither his activities under Mysteron control nor his true identity once the Mysterons give him up,

Might just be a typo - but Captain Scarlet does NOT remember what he did as a Mysteron - there are 6 blank hours in his memory (I think I got that timing right).
He does remember who he is when he wakes up, free from their control, though.

[Parker Gabriel]

When I wrote that "Martin Stewart" would be unlike Captain Scarlet in remembering neither his activities under Mysteron control nor his true identity, I did not mean to imply that Captain Scarlet remembered his activities under Mysteron control, which he clearly does not. Yet.

What he does remember is his true identity, and THAT much is what "Martin Stewart" does not remember.

[The Beta Queen]

The thing is – you not only implied that Scarlet remembered his time as a Mysteron, you stated it by comparison:

an amnesiac Mysteronizee <<snip>> who, like Captain Scarlet, was taken over between being killed and actually dying, but who, unlike Captain Scarlet, remembers neither his activities under Mysteron control nor his true identity once the Mysterons give him up

The memories of his actions, and the memories of his identity, are part of the same clause and are therefore to be taken as an entity. To convey what you apparently wanted to convey, you would have needed to write:

an amnesiac Mysteronizee <<snip>> who, like Captain Scarlet, was taken over between being killed and actually dying and no longer remembers his activities while under Mysteron control, but who, unlike Captain Scarlet, does not remember his true identity once the Mysterons give him up

Sloppy English which conveys the opposite of, or something other than, what the writer intended, is one of my bugbears. By not thinking about what you posted, or re-reading it before or after posting, you laid yourself open to criticism far worse than you've actually received. Your readers are not psychic, and can't be expected to know what you have in your mind unless you specifically write it down.

PS - instead of "Mysteronizee" which is a horrible word, how about "Mysteron construct"?

[Parker Gabriel]

I apologize for the fumbled wording.

Mysteron likenesses we've seen, however, if they were taken over between being killed and actual deaths, have tended to recover their normal personalities, even though Rainier Blackheart's snapped under the strain. But what if the likeness, after being released, had no memory of who the victim was BEFORE the takeover?

Though there almost certainly are stories about an amnesiac Captain Scarlet, I can't remember which ones they are or where to find them, if you'll excuse my wording. That's the mystery which the Spectrum Organization will have to solve: who Martin Stewart was before he got the identity OF Martin Stewart.

[Marion]

Except for where we are shown - and I am talking about the TV programmes, not fan fic - that the Mysterons' agent is killed, we don't know what happens to reconstructs after the Mysterons have finished with them. The fate of Fraser (Crater 101) and Helga (Model Spy) remain a mystery.
We can assume that Gabrielle, the other Mysteronised model, is safely locked away by Spectrum, and any likeness to the Mysteron agent Judy Chapman, is purely coincidental! . I think all of the other Mysteron reconstructs are killed at some point in the plot. None of them are shown to have been 'released' by the Mysterons, and we're not told that Scarlet was released either. He ceased to be under the control of the Mysterons, but we don't know how or why. We can, and do, speculate about it, of course.
Personally, I have a bit of a problem with characters in stories (any stories) who have the same abilities as Scarlet - by which I mean retrometabolism.
What happened to Scarlet between the car crash on his way to New York, and the incident at the Car Vu, was presumably much the same as happened to any poor unfortunate the Mysterons wanted to act for them. We're only speculating that Scarlet was 'Mysteronised' whilst he was still alive - but we don't know for sure - and that being shot and falling 800 feet was probably the trigger that broke the link to the Mysterons, and made him a free agent again.
Somehow, it seems to me that if it is possible for other people to be set free in other ways, it lessens the significance of what Scarlet is and how he became like that.

[Skybase Girl]

Precisely, Marion. Although I am looking sometimes from an NCS point of view, and the original episodes were different, the point remains the same - if Scarlet "recovered", for want of a better word, from his Mysteron infuence, who knows whether or not it could happen again ?

Could Captain Black re-join society ? There are certainly enough clues in NCS to suggest that may be possible, although I don't think the original series made it as clear. No-one knows what happened to all the other Mysteronised souls wandering the earth. I must say the the producers of NCS did a very tidy job of simply having them vanish. Cuts out a lot of questions !

[Marion]

Skybase girl said:

Could Captain Black re-join society ? There are certainly enough clues in NCS to suggest that may be possible, although I don't think the original series made it as clear.

I've been thinking about that. I am, as you know, no great fan of NCS, but the one thing I did like more than the original, was Captain Black. He made a splendid villain, with his ironic one liners and his total lack of remorse.
The differences between OCS Black and NCS Black, include the fact that there has always been an ambiguity about whether original Black was killed, or merely taken over.
If Conrad Turner was 'taken over'- my preferred option - in the event of his being 'released' from Mysteron influence, he would be alive in the normal sense, although whether he could 're-join society' is another question. I feel sure he would have severe mental problems given what happened to him. This is based on the statement he made at Culver : the Mysterons too have compassion, which I feel could have been Conrad Turner, and not Captain Black speaking, if you follow me - as it is patently obvious that the Mysterons show no compassion at any other point in the TV shows.
Conrad Lefkon, released from the Mysterons, would surely be dead? This is assuming that Scarlet's 'freedom' was by way of being a fluke, of course. Is it likely that the Mysterons, out of the kindness of their hearts (assuming they have one) would re-animate Lefkon? And, would anyone be prepared to allow a man who so obviously enjoyed being evil, to 're-join society'?
Of course, it could well be that the 'Powers that Be' in either series, might fling both 'Blacks' into gaol and throw the key away...

[Skybase Girl]

Although I think we're getting well off the subject of Mary Sues and more into Mysteron territory, I'll continue !

There are a few episodes of NCS that indicate that Mystonised humans have flash-backs to their original character, whether or not it is obvious that they have been killed. I'm thinking of Lt Green's father in "The Homecoming" and Frank Bogart's brother in "Contact". It seems to indicate that the Mysterons, by reproducing the person, cannot completely eradicate their personality, regardless of how long they may have been dead.

Now, I have a real problem with the timeline here ( certain theories abound, curtesy of Destiny, in the story "Souls Apart" !). It seems that in both series', the Mysterons usually kill and re-animate immediately. However, that didn't happen with Captain Black in NCS. How much humanity would be left after you've been dead for a week or two ? That may depend on your theories about "God", the universe and what happens when we die. ( Again, we weren't told how long it was after Black's funeral that he was re-created.)

I think that the creators simply didn't put sufficient thought into making the whole thing plausible, although after 40 years hindsight, you would have thought they'd get it right with NCS.
Makes it darn hard for we non-scientific writers to come up with logical explanations !

NCS reverses the original equation, in that it is unclear what happened to Scarlet, so we really don't know whether he was killed. The assumption is that he was, because he has acquired alien DNA, but if that's the case, I don't know why it wasn't made clear in the script.

There are also indications that the Mysterons don't need to kill to get people to do their bidding - a form of hypnosis seems to work. If that's the case, why kill in the first place? Are they just practising to see how humans are best controlled and maybe topping and re-animating them is just a crude early attempt?

But yes, it's puzzling. OCS Black, epitome of the Undead, displays as much life as a corpse might be expected to, while NCS Black, having been pushing up daisies for an unseasonal amount of time, sparkles with murderous intent and witty asides. I'd really love to talk to Gerry and the scriptwriters as to what their thoughts were !

[chrisbishop]

Considering that the subject started in the thread "Mary Sues" has evolved considerably, I've decided to split the topics and give the later part of the thread - about Mysterons and Human personality a thread of its own.

Please carry on, people!

[Marion]

You got me thinking, Skybase Girl, as I felt sure I had seen something about how soon after 'exterminating' their target, the Mysterons had to retrometabolise them - but, even with all the skill and experise of a Librarian, I can't find it. No surprise there.
All I could find was a sentence from the '67 annual which states:
'The Mysterons watch and wait, always ready to take over Earth people and objects as soon as they have been destroyed.'

I can't think of any OCS Mysteron Agents that have the same 'flashbacks to their original characters' - but then we don't see that much about any of their backgrounds to recognise flash-backs to.

[Marion]

I have a feeling this - the time lapse possible between death and Mysteronisation - is something that was never resolved by the production team for TV or comics in either series.
There is an OCS comic story that has Black and an army created from the dead soldiers in a military graveyard - many wearing uniforms that suggest they're centuries old - trying to rob a bank. If that's the case the Mysterons could simply re-animate the dead at will, and humankind would be instantly outnumbered.
In NCS - am I right in thinking that Green's father had been missing since she was a little girl - so presumably he'd been dead for some time before he was Mysteronised as well? Although I suppose there is always the possibility that his life support capsule didn't fail until the Mysterons wanted him...?
And we see NCS Black being buried and rising from the grave... so that tends to suggest he really was dead and not just hanging about until needed.
Good job he wasn't cremated, eh?

[Skybase Girl]

Yes, indeed, Marion !

Might be OK if his remains were all together in an urn, but the Mysterons would have had quite a job if his ashes had been scattered to the four winds !

[Parker Gabriel]

:-D "Might be OK if his remains were all together in an urn, but the Mysterons would have had quite a job if his ashes had been scattered to the four winds!"

True enough. But the Mysterons could still take over their original victim BEFORE the cremation process had begun--and they tend to do just that.

[Skybase Girl]

That works, Parker, if they kill to re-create for an already formed purpose, and certainly that's mostly the case in the TV series. ( OCS, that is). It's a while since I watched it, so I'm sure people will tell me if there are exceptions !

However, Marion has a point with Lt Green's father. It isn't made clear if he was Mysteronised on point of death, or much later. It appears his body was cryogenically ( don't scream at me if I've got that wrong!) stored, so he was in one piece. If Lt Green was about twelve when he went missing, ( I think that's the age mentioned), then it was long before the Mysterons waged war. I wouldn't have thought they had an axe to grind at that point. Maybe the fact that the bodies were in good nick came in handy later.

I have some questions and theories re Astrid Winters and Mysteronisation, but I think they're best directed to the NCS threads......