Mysteron Parlour Tricks
Moderator: Spectrum Strike Force
Something I’ve been wondering about is the business of HOW the Mysterons might take over the controls of a car/plane/SPV/oil-well or whatever. They piloted the plane taking Scarlet, Blue and Dr Conrad to Lake Toma. They chauffeured Scarlet to his rendezvous with Black during the pulsator incident. They turned on a safety valve at Bensheba, and let the fuel out of Verdain’s boat in the bay at Monte Carlo. How did they DO that, then? I suppose we could simply assume that the devices in question had already been mysteronised, and were subject to Mysteron control for that reason, but in the case of the safety valve and the fuel tank that seems unlikely.
There’s perhaps a clue in the “Traitor” incident at Koala Base, in which the traitor turned out to be a component that had had its molecular structure altered. Again, had the Mysterons simply destroyed and reconstructed it, or had they waved their two circular green magic wands over it and modified the original in some way? Probably the latter, just like the non-alcoholic champagne in “Flight to Atlantica”. (We can guess that the champagne had not been mysteronised prior to its arrival on Cloudbase, because it would certainly have been scanned with a detector – though I think we can virtually take it for granted that Captain Black sent it to them in the first place.*) The thing is, notwithstanding the ability to change the molecular structure of something, there’s still the matter of how you make it perform on cue. I can’t imagine any molecular modification – even if it could be remotely effected, which we have to believe the Mysterons have the capability to do - that would cause something to move, push, pull, levitate or whatever. You’d literally have to make the molecules want to change their position, and the only mechanism I can imagine for doing that would be the introduction of a localised magnetic field that would cause the devices in question to perform like electromagnets – raising the question of whether the Mysterons can only work their wicked ways on magnetisable objects.
Offhand, I can’t think of any instance in which a non-metallic object was commandeered by the Mysterons other than the champagne – and on that occasion it didn’t perform any “tricks” other than to intoxicate anyone who drank it. Perhaps that’s the reason why Mysterons have to create reconstructions of humans first - namely that you can’t magnetise a biological organism. Perhaps the reconstructions are made of a substance that IS magnetisable (and which incidentally is impervious to X-rays), and therefore can be modified at a molecular level in any way the Mysterons see fit - the most obvious way being to make it do what you want.
So, what happened to Scarlet to make him invulnerable to that sort of tinkering, then? I reckon the answer lies in that fall from the Car-Vu, which I’ll dig out of my archives and paste in here:
"Suppose that when Scarlet fell from the Car-Vu, he passed through a powerful electromagnetic field, very probably related to the Car-Vu itself, since the structure was shaped like an electromagnetic coil, and could well have had high-voltage electrical cables running up to the top inside the helical infrastructure. Generation of electrical current is proportional to the rate at which an object passes through the field - and Scarlet was accelerating at 9.81 m/s² from a very considerable height. Anyway, whatever the mathematics of it, that experience was sufficient to cause the elimination of the Mysterons’ control."
The lethal power of electricity to mysteronised reconstructions now falls into place, of course, since a high voltage can be assumed to wipe the Mysterons’ imprints, releasing the subject from their control. My own feeling about it is that the electricity then kills the subject in exactly the same way that it does humans – but in the same instant that the Mysterons’ control is broken. So by a stroke of fate, Scarlet’s fall induced just enough of a shock to break the control, but not quite enough to kill him.
So…. if only Spectrum were able to experiment on a few Mysteron reconstructions, they’d probably be able to determine the exact voltage needed to do that – after which they could build that voltage into their Mysteron guns, effectively creating humans with Scarlet-like powers every time they used them. But then, it goes without saying that the Mysterons would never allow them to do it: they’d just start blowing their operatives up the instant Spectrum got close to discovering the secret.
How about that for a special theory of mysteronisation? (Next stage is the general theory of mysteronisation, in which we try to explain how the Mysterons remotely induce the magnetic field in the first place…)
[* Coming to think of it, just how DO you mail something to Cloudbase, then? It’s my experience that you can’t mail anything to anybody these days and expect it to arrive on time unless you add a zip code – which could be slightly difficult in the case of Cloudbase, when it’s a couple of miles up in the air and keeps moving. Ahh, but no doubt there’s a standard procedure for shipping personal effects from relatives to the base, probably involving mailing them to a depot somewhere – and Black would have known that, of course. Silly me – not thinking straight.]
DocBrown
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DocBrown
Doc Brown
In reply to your comment: "offhand I can't think of an instance in which a non-metallic object was commandeered by the Mysterons other than the champagne..."
Ummm...well, what do we call Captain Black?
(But maybe you don't count him as an object. Though I think we did more or less decide he's under Mysteron control in spite of not being a reconstruction.)
Doc Denim
(sorry, I'm being evil today....)
PS - dissertation to follow, re: magnetic stuff, much (!) more supportive in nature.
Followed By:
For all Inquiring Minds (though they may not thank me for it.)
In (supportive) reply to Doc Brown's theory above, I have to provide a small quote (I promise I will not do this often!) sourced from Wikipedia (a free online encyclopedia, great stuff, google it anytime) which is simply too good not to share. I have capitalized the bits which I feel are 'Mysteron-powers" relevant - and Doc Brown can relax: the 'magnetization' of biological things can take place at a quantum level. (Warning: if you don't like science, cyber-run screaming from the thread now!)
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Quantum electrodynamics, or QED, is a quantum theory of electromagnetism. QED describes all phenomena exhibited by charged point particles such as electrons and positrons, and particles of light, photons, interacting by electromagnetism. This theory includes classical electrodynamics in the limits of large fields, but also explains purely quantum phenomena such as THE STRUCTURE OF ATOMS AND MOLECULES, THE CREATION OF PARTICLES BY AN ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD and the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron. QED was the first quantum field theory in which the difficulties of building a consistent, fully quantum description of fields and CREATION AND ANNIHILATION OF QUANTUM PARTICLES WERE SATISFACTORILY RESOLVED.
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I am not going to quote it, but another theory QCD (quantum chromodynamics) is similar but applies to nuclear particles (protons, neutrons, etc.) -
So, without getting andy more technical than that, I just want to say that Doc Brown is on the right track - and while we really don't know how to do it practically speaking, it IS more than possible for the Mysterons to effect/manipulate things on a sub-atomic or molecular level, as in the case of the tampered-with champagne or the 'traitor' part from the hovercraft. Since this also covers photons, this could also explain something about why photographic images of Mysteron agents come out all blank - possibly some sort of an absorption effect. And as far as 'moving' things, yes, whether the stuff had been Mysteronized or not, I happen to think that the Mysterons can "seize it at the quantum level and change its co-ordinates in three dimensions" (a little teaser from Op. Min. ch 5).
However, I still disagree that objects or people 'need' to be mysteronized before they can be Mysteron-manipulated - if the Mysterons can create exact duplicates of their target victims or objects (and the opening sequence in each CS episode says so), and they're truly identical, then it will take the same 'force/power/energy ' to move it, regardless of its origin. (Yes, you've heard that one before too.) And I do really like the part about creation and annihilation of particles (from which to build reconstructions, of course) because all of that Does Sound Like the Mysterons, doesn't it?
As to: How do they Do it - well, for that you'd need string theory too......and I just won't do that to everyone, unless by popular demand. (No, I won't hold my breath.)
'Nuff said. Have fun!
Ciao!
Doc Denim
PS - About the Car-Vu another time.
AND FINALLY:
Hey all!
But mostly for Doc Brown, because this is the promised Car-Vu response.......
Have read this over a few times, I can certainly conclude that it is really well thought out because, yes, electrical flows do produce magnetic fields (and vice-versa), it seems Scarlet would likely have passed through some portion of such a field in the course of his fall from the top of the Car-Vu. I can't rule it out, I can only argue that I don't think this would have been sufficient enough to 'break' the Mysteron's influence. Not because there's anything wrong with it in prinicple, but more because of things that Didn't Happen to Scarlet in later episodes, if this had been the case. Consider, for examples:
- In the Magnus episode, when Dr. Fawn actually allows Dr. Magnus to use electricity (even in milli-amps) to zap Scarlet-as-Tiempo under the sheet, it doesn't 'break' the Mysteron influence - Scarlet is 'killed' and recovers.
- In Place of the Angels, Scarlet seems able to function just fine while apprehending Ms. Chapman on top of the Hoover Dam - which would by design house large turbines generating electricity (and magnetic fields) on a scale much larger than those in the Car-Vu scenario would have - and it didn't 'break' the Mysteron influence. This is a possible ditto for Manhunt, in which Scarlet spent time at the Culver Atomic Center without apparent ill-effect - though I'm not sure if the Culver facility was strictly for research (it seems a bit large for that) or if it was a nuclear power generating station - maybe it served both purposes. If we assume that the Mysterons couldn't retrieve Black because of the 'free radiation' effects, then we'd also have to assume they'd lose any connection to Scarlet as well. I also have to wonder what possible effects passing though the Earth's Van Allen Belts and/or solar radiation storms might have had on Scarlet while in transit to the Moon.
- In Noose of Ice, when Scarlet chases the Mysteron agent into the power station (his name escapes me at the moment) he's standing there surrounded by the presence of 100,000 volts of humming electricity - which would simply have to have far more direct effect on him than any chance effect encountered at the Car-Vu., and it didn't seem to bother him too much then, either. (Which also throws into serious question, how much 'electrical' interference it must have taken to disrupt the Mysteron influence piloting the plane in Flight 104. Or why, for that matter, the Mysterons were able to operate without difficulty in the presence of a huge thunderstorms in Expo '68).
- In Big Ben, when Scarlet is desperately trying to escape the blast of the atomic device in the prepared excavations underground, and he doesn't quite get out - his elevator would have been well and truly caught in the EMP (electromagnetic pulse) generated by the nuclear blast - such an effect would surely have overwhelmed any residual Mysteron influence that Scarlet retained, if such influence was/is effected by these phenomena.
All of the above, of course, does assume that Scarlet 's retrometabolism is a direct consequence of either a continuing or a residual Mysteron influence, and I know not everyone here agrees with me on that, nor should they. (Most regular visitors here know that I personally favor the former theory, as I've simply been unable to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to how the latter works.)
But that's another discussion. Everyone write soon!
Doc Denim
PS - Happy Easter, for any and all who celebrate! Enjoy the chocolates!
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Doc Denim
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 09/04/2004
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It must be the chocolate.
I have just had a thought so devastatingly obvious I can't beleive that both Doc Brown and I missed it.
Re: the Car-Vu and electromagnetic fields.
If falling down though the aforementioned field was enough to break the Mysteron's influence, then what, possibly, could/should/would have happened when Scarlet was driving up the dratted tower with the WP in tow?
For anyone favoring the 'it's the fall that did it' reasoning, then I guess we'll have to go with Marion's theory that the Mysterons 'withdrew' their influence before Scarlet was dead. Unless the Mysterons had taken precautionary measures to protect Scarlet from the field on the way up, but not on the way down, which amounts to pretty much the same thing. Carry on, all.
Having (and speaking only for myself) a brunette-moment here, I guess.
Doc 'duh!' Denim
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Doc Denim
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Hmm, there is much material here to ponder! I fear I've taken up a fair proportion of your Easter weekend with this posting, Doc! But to take your points one at a time...
'Tis true that Magnus used electricity on Scarlet in "Operation Time" - apparently in a sufficient dose to kill him. But this wasn't an electrocution as such, was it - more a matter of terminally disrupting the operation of his brain. The voltage would have been nothing like that needed to wipe the Mysteron imprint from Scarlet's body (above which would under my theory kill him), and therefore Scarlet's natural healing process kicked in as usual after his "death". (Though in passing we might wonder why Magnus didn't sense Scarlet's presence under the operating gown, in the same way that Scarlet might have sensed Magnus had he been conscious. We've speculated before that Scarlet may in reality only be sensitive to Mysterons in "communication mode" however, so we might infer that since Scarlet has nobody to communicate with - and was unconscious anyway - Magnus would have been unaware of him.)
If a mysteronised construct is composed of a substance that conducts electricity, and therefore is effectively capable of functioning as an electro-magnet, it would behave in pretty much the same way as a bar of metal when passed through a magnetic field. But the key factor here is movement: the bar has to pass through the field at a relatively high speed to produce an effect - indeed, I seem to remember that the speed is directly proportional to the effect it produces. When he fell from the Car-Vu, Scarlet was accelerating downwards through the field at very high speed; certainly far faster than he was previously travelling up to the top of the structure, which would have been at a snail's pace in comparison, since the speed of the car he was driving was largely rotational to negotiate the helix to the top - the vertical rate of ascent would have been relatively slow, however recklessly he was driving the car.
Likewise, the airliner conveying Scarlet, Blue and Conrad to Lake Toma would have been flying exceptionally fast over that power booster station - evidently fast enough to break, or at least to weaken, the Mysteron hold over the controls. So far, so good - and we note in passing that it doesn't appear to be necessary for the mysteronised construct to be subjected to this critical voltage for a sustained period for the erasing to take effect, since that plane would have been over the booster station in a matter of a second or two.
As far as the Boulder Dam incident is concerned, the question here is not whether the magnetic fields that would certainly have been present would affect Scarlet. I'm suggesting that Scarlet is free of Mysteron control because of his having been subjected to a critical dose of electricity - so there's no reason to suppose that subsequently being subjected to any form of magnetic field should affect him in any way. Just to clarify, I'm assuming that Mysteron control is a process that is imposed by the Mysterons after reconstruction, rather like a recording on a magnetic tape, and that that control can be wiped by the construct passing through a sufficiently powerful magnetic field. The construct continues to exist, retaining an inherent ability to regenerate if damaged (like Scarlet), but no longer responds to orders from the Mysterons. I'm keeping an open mind about whether the direct application of high voltage electricity destroys the construct. On the previous forum I expressed the view that it probably didn't, and that the apparent "death" of constructs was actually induced by the Mysterons themselves to prevent Earthmen discovering that application of high voltage electricity actually produces beings like Scarlet (constructs free of their control), but I'm fairly sure the show provides no evidence to indicate which view is the more likely.
Something I am wondering about however is why those magnetic fields around the Boulder Dam didn't apparently adversely affect Judy Chapman, the Mysteron agent. Perhaps the reason again is she wasn't passing through them fast enough to produce what we might call "the Scarlet Effect", i.e. the interference with Mysteron control. (Though coming to think of it, it's possible she wasn't operating at peak efficiency, as she firstly couldn't find the virus in her handbag, and then fell over the dam after catching her heel in a grating. Not the sort of incompetence you'd expect from your average Mysteron.) Anyway, ditto the incident in "Noose of Ice": neither Scarlet nor the Mysteron were moving through the magnetic field produced by the generator at high speed (in which case we might have expected the Mysterons to lose control of their agent) - they were merely standing in the middle of it.
The Expo 2068 incident however raises serious questions. Irrespective of the ins and outs of the above discussion, we know that electricity causes the Mysterons problems, so how indeed were they able to operate in a thunderstorm? The power of a bolt of lightning is awesome, and a succession of them might have been expected to play havoc with Captain Black's ability to dematerialise that diversion sign, to say nothing of reconstructing the atomic transporter and its driver afterwards. [Incidentally, the storm might have had one very interesting effect indeed. I don't know if anybody has ever noticed, but the original sign had the word "Diversion" on it and an arrow pointing to the left. When the sign rematerialised on the other road, the word "Diversion" was still there, but the arrow pointed to the right. Could it be that the storm had the effect of reversing the atomic polarity of part of the sign, causing it to flip over in hyperspace to be reconstituted as a mirror image of the original?*]
The points about Culver and the Van Allen belt fall into the same bracket as the Boulder Dam, i.e. that Scarlet is not affected by electricity and/or radiation any more than a human would be: I'm assuming that these phenomena have an impact only on Mysteron control, and Scarlet is already free of that. But here's a thought - perhaps the Mysterons realised immediately after their attack on their complex that the Van Allen belt would pose an insuperable barrier to their applying their powers on Earth - which was precisely why they sent back a conduit for their powers who was not merely a construct. If so, then Black is far more than just an agent as such - he effectively IS the Mysterons on Earth.
Happy Easter, everyone!
[* Alternatively, it probably had an arrow on both sides, and Black just turned it round. Doh!]
DocBrown
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DocBrown
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 10/04/2004
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Good morning! (well, it is where I am, anyway)
And no, Doc Brown: no, no--- you are not taking up too much of my easter weekend, and even if you were, what do you suppose I would rather be doing anyway? Though Bunny Duty does call, so I will have to constrain myself to some sort of brevity today.
Well, now, yes, much to ponder. Perhaps. Though it seems very much to me that we are not going to resolve this, not because it's not resolvable, but simply because we are operating on two sets of totally different assumptions as regards Captain Scarlet's 'retrometabolism' and/or the mechanisms by which the Mysterons exert control over their reconstructions. And I do not have much time to go into that right now, suffice to say that your theories are based in four dimensional space-time on an atomic level, and assume that a construct's materials are different from the original's so that the Mysteron's can 'work' with them, while mine are based on an absolutely identical construct operating in eleven-dimensional space-time at a quantum level, which includes your four dimensions part and parcel, but gives the Mysterons far more latitude to function effectively hereabouts (thunderstorms, free radiation and electromagnetic fields notwithstanding) and gives them powers we cannot (currently!) hope to duplicate or understand. (But we are working on it.)
Anyway, perhaps my biggest quibble with the Car-Vu field scenario, while not Impossible for reasons previously outlined, is so Improbable that Scarlet really should have purchased a lottery ticket on the way down. He only fell 800 feet - which is really not all that far, and I don't suppose he could have collected just exactly the right amount of velocity to pass through just exactly the right amount of 'field' strength at just exactly the right moment to break the Mysteron's control under the particular circumstances in which the hapless Scarlet construct found himself. Nor do we know the finer points and parameters to calculate that - while we might know Scarlet's initial velocity (zero) and his altitude (800 feet) we don't know the precise value of the field or Scarlet's precise distance from the source of the field (that could be estimated) and if I'm recalling this correctly, the strength of that field would be inversely proportional to Scarlet's distance from it. And by that I mean that even while moving upwards at a slower rate of speed, he would still have been proportionately closer to the field source running up the central core of the Car-Vu than he would have been falling down from the outer radius of the upper platform - also unlikely that there would have been a point where those two lines might have crossed on a graph if they could be precisely calculated out or how they might compare to many of the other proposed scenarios mentioned in the posts above.
Anyway, until we can get away from the apples vs. oranges and agree to look at bananas instead, we're not likely to come to some mutual concensus on this issue, and we'd better stop scaring everyone else away....
Gotta run! (or hop, today!)
Ciao all!
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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Agreed! The thing about the two mutually incompatible multi-dimensional universes and the assumptions about what is and what isn’t feasible in each of them does tend to throw a bit of a spanner in the space-time frame, as it were. As to the old chestnut of how Scarlet accelerated to the bottom of the Car-Vu faster that the Mysterons did, well, this we all know this one is going to run for as long as there are people to talk about it, so perhaps it’s time we moved on to something else. Apart from anything else, I’m trying to imagine everybody else’s expressions as they read through all this – not a pretty sight!
This is kind of off-track, but irrespective of the number of dimensions in the universe, something that’s probably slightly more addressable is the question of why the Mysterons would have acquired (or been given) the ability to do what they do. It seems to me that the basic retrometabolic capability could – and probably should - be viewed as a defence mechanism, pure and simple, serving the single purpose of facilitating the survival of the civilisation. A successful species here survives by its members doing one or more of (a) winning fights, running away faster than they can be pursued, (c) disguising themselves so they can’t been seen and (d) reproducing themselves faster than they can be killed. The Mysterons don’t do any of those things. From the admittedly limited experience of their actions to date, they allow themselves to be destroyed, and then they effectively rewind time.
They can’t do that indefinitely however. If an aggressor has more firepower than the Mysterons have energy reserves, the aggressor can destroy the complex more times than the Mysterons can reconstitute it. So I’m wondering whether the ability to assimilate alien life-forms and alien technology is an extension of the Mysterons’ defence mechanism, allowing them to take the fight to the enemy by creating fifth-columnists within the enemy’s ranks. Or is it primarily a mechanism for extending the Mysteron civilisation, as in option (d) in the above paragraph? When the Mysterons announced that they would destroy all life on Earth, was that simply a matter of their being vindictive as we tend to assume – or is it actually a precursor to colonising the planet with a race of constructs who adhere to the Mysteron philosophy of life – whatever that might be?
DocBrown
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DocBrown
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 12/04/2004
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Ah, yes....now we're going to get somewhere! In the old forum I had hinted that I would soon post my "But What Is A Mysteron, Really?" blather, and I have actually been setting my notes in order to do that - but I need to re-key the dratted things (they are not in cyber-copy, unfortunately)(very old material, done on a C64, originally, so I have had to blow the dust off), but you have touched on two or three points here that I feel are right bang-on. So, I will move on over to the "Origins of the Mysterons" thread, and post it there, but not for a day or two....
Meantime, I will just leave you with an idea or so: who says that the Mysterons 'evolved' in just three dimensions, plus time? We're quite used to it, because. obviously that's what we 'experience' everyday - but mathematically it's as easy to do so in four dimensions plus time. But it is also true that it's not possible to look 'up' a dimension, it's only possible to look 'down'. By that I mean we (as humans, anyway) are easily able to visualize any of the following:
- zero dimensions (a point)
- one dimensions (a line)
- two dimensions (a surface)
- three dimensions (such as a cube)
but just try to visualize a line going off the corner of that cube at 90 degrees, up into another dimension, to build a tesseract (go ahead, google it), and you run into a serious problem 'seeing' it, though there's nothing that says it isn't possible for such a thing to exist.
Have fun!
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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Ah, I'd be happy to talk about dimensions over and above the fourth one all day!
As far as the tesseract thing is concerned, there are some very good applications on the Web on this subject - you can find a discussion of how to project a 4-dimensional hypercube into 3-dimensional space at http://www.hyperdimensia.com/, and a Java application to do it at http://www.hyperdimensia.com/viewer4d.html. There's also an excellent tesseract visualiser at http://www.maa.org/editorial/knot/tesseract.htmlwhich among other things enables you to look at the cross-section of a 4D hypercube as it passes through 3D space.
Something that always bothered me about regarding time as the fourth dimension is that I could never see any particular reason why there should be only one of them. If our own universe comprises three spatial dimensions (as it appears to, unless our whole concept of dimensions is inherently cock-eyed - and I'm quite prepared to admit that possibility), why shouldn't there be several temporal dimensions as well?*
Taking the thought further, I dislike intensely the idea of spatial and temporal dimensions being regarded as distinct concepts. I'm familiar with the stuff about space and time being interconnected by relativity, but there still seems to me to be a distinction in terms of what they do - spatial dimensions are what get you from one place to another, and the time dimension is what makes you younger or older. The apparent distinction may just be a subjective thing that's imposed by our own physical nature, so it could be that what I've just said is inherently tautological (i.e. "you use space to move in space, and you use time to move in time"), but it's still a mental hurdle that I haven't managed to scramble over yet.
You've referred to eleven dimensions in earlier threads, Doc Denim - and here, I'm out of my depth. What are the other dimensions? Are they additional space/time dimensions, or are they something else completely? Assuming they're something else completely, as I suspect they might be, would I be right in thinking that you're considering the possibility that mysteronised constructs are projections of the original structures as they might appear in what a lot of SF authors have vaguely called a "parallel universe", i.e. one lying alongside our own but separated from it in one or more of the dimensions outside the four with which we are familiar? If so, then we get the "identical but strangely different" themes that have come up in stories like "Mirror, Mirror" in the original Star Trek series, and "Inferno" from the first series of the Jon Pertwee era of Doctor Who. Again, if I've got that right, then presumably the Mysterons "move" the parallel universe counterparts of their chosen victims into our own space-time continuum to act as their own instruments of destruction/vengeance etc etc, possibly returning them to their own universe again at some later stage, usually after that particular piece of offensive action is completed. Am I on the right track here, or have I lost the plot completely?
[* Or are there any dimensions at all? There's a superb SF story by Barrington J. Bayley called "Collision with Chronos" that explores the idea of the Earth being the meeting-point of two linear time streams moving in opposite directions, and the frantic preparations being made by the two civilisations being carried along in their shockwaves to annihilate one other before the collision, as each sees the ruins of the other beginning to rise up in its midst, aging backwards in time. The same story explores the possibilities of orthogonal and oblique time streams over and above the one with which human civilisation is most familiar. Anyone who's interested can find its details at http://www.cosmos-books.com/bayley-chronos.html.
Another excellent story by Bayley called "The Fall of Chronopolis" explores the concept of time being constituted of a series of stable nodes that are moving steadily in harmony into the future, rather like troughs of waves moving upon the surface of an ocean of potential time. Time travel is possible by diving into that ocean and resurfacing in a different trough, making it possible to change established history as each "wave" overwrites the last. By the "time" the story takes place, all human history is a fantastically twisted, distorted and intermingled version of the one with which we are currently familiar. Again, anyone who's interested can find its details at http://www.cosmos-books.com/bayley-fall.html
DocBrown
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DocBrown
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:38 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 03/05/2004
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Yo Doc!
Was wondering where you'd gotten to!
It's too early in the day for this, but its currently believed that the other dimensions are 'compactified' meaning, vaguely, that they're rolled up into themselves on a subatomic scale. I'm not real clear on that, but if you need to know more, visit: superstringtheory.com and do a bit of poking around. And time is not always regarded as separate anymore, that's why most folks inclined to discuss these things always refer to space-time because you can't really look at them as 'single' entities. (i.e. to cross any amount of space necessarily takes a certain amount of time.)
Gotta run! Later!
ciao!
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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So... if space and time are inextricably linked... does that imply that to cross any amount of time, one necessarily has to move through space? It seems to me that that's not quite as silly a comment as it might at first appear. I think what I'm asking is whether if there is no movement through space at all, does time stop? Just a thought...
DocBrown
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DocBrown
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 03/05/2004
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hmmm...ahhh, well...lemme think for a second.
Well, I'm not sure that there's any such thing as No Motion - since the Universe is expanding (at an accelerating pace, too) then nothing is ever at a true standstill. Motion is all relative, so it's therefore - I would have to surmise - not possible for time to stand still.
Best guess in less than a minute.
Doc Denim
PS - You must give Hawking's stuff a try as well.....
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Doc Denim
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I did read somewhere that the "Present" is an abstract notion - it doesn't really exist, as time is always and forever fluid. As soon as we say "Now", "Now" is gone. The only certainty about time is "The Past" which is - supposedly - gone and will stay forever unchanged - and "The Future" - which is constantly in movement.
Of course "The Past gone and forever unchanged" - at least in term of sci-fi writing could also be an abstract notion. There's so many books and movies showing us people trying to change the course of past events - the effects it could have on the Present\Future, and the paradoxes it could cause. I don't know if it has been translated from French to English, but there is a book, "Le Voyageur Imprudent" ("The Careless Traveller") which in a few explanatory lines, illustrates the best the problem that could be encountered by a time traveller:
"He went back in time and killed his father.
So he wasn't born. And didn't go back in time.
So his father lived and he was born.
So he DID go back in time and killed his father..."
And so on...
But I digress here... This is a getting us far from your actual topics of "parallel worlds".
Speaking of which - and seeing that the subject seems to interest you - is there any one of you who is planning a story of "fantastically twisted and distorted version" of the world such as we know it?
Sorry - but seeing the topic, I couldn't help myself asking the question!
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chrisbishop
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 04/05/2004
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Doc B (and Everyone, of course)
this is where you go:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
for an amazing tour of the Universe including parallel dimensions, spacetime and strings. (Who says the Mysterons have powers beyond our understanding?) Siobhan-blathering may actually become clear!
Excellent stuff!
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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Just to jump back one step to the Father/Son paradox for a second, I struggled in vain with that paradox many years ago, and gave up – as I’m sure everybody else has at some time or another. Personally, I reckon the best (in the sense of most successful attempt to resolve it) treatment of it ever filmed was the “Back to the Future” trilogy, in which the scriptwriters must have given themselves nervous breakdowns trying to wrap all the inherent paradoxes up into a single coherent thread, but even here there are leaks in the barrel as the same problem keeps on resurfacing.
To take one example, in BTTF III set in 1885, Marty tells Doc Brown(!) of the origin of the name Clayton Ravine, namely that it is that a teacher who had fallen over it. Marty & Brown then prevent Clara Clayton’s death before they realise who she is, ultimately resulting in the ravine being renamed Eastwood Ravine – in honour of Marty himself (who had called himself Clint Eastwood in the mistaken belief that this would be a impressive-sounding name in 1885) and whom the 19th century inhabitants of Hill Valley would have subsequently believed died in the train crash that sent him back to the present day. But that means that the ravine would have always been called Eastwood Ravine – so how did Marty know what it was originally called?
To take that problem in its simplest possible form, you could assume here that there are two alternative versions of the present – one in which the ravine is called Clayton Ravine, and the other in which it’s called Eastwood Ravine. Each is equally valid, neither being any more “real” than the other, but each resulting in the other being brought into existence. All right then, let’s say that each exists with probability ½. More complicated versions of the paradox could easily be dreamed up in which three, four, five or more alternate realities come into existence with different levels of probability. If we accept the consequences of the so-called Butterfly Effect, in which absolutely everything impacts upon everything else, the idea of reality rapidly begins to fade away, to be replaced with an infinite number of potential realities, each with its own associated level of relative probability. We live in one of those realities. We’ve got no idea at all how likely it is to exist, because we’ve no standards of comparison. We can begin to conceive of less likely realities than our own… but we now have to consider the possibility of more likely realities than our own.
The Mysterons can manipulate time, so the Clayton/Eastwood paradox becomes more than an abstract problem when we try to comprehend their true nature. All right, suppose the Mysterons were to reside in a reality that’s slightly more likely to exist than ours. Suppose that it’s a reality that coincides with our own to a substantial degree, and that therefore it overlaps our own reality to a considerable extent – you might say that whereas the Clayton/Eastwood universes are orthogonal to one another (since each reality completely precludes the other), the Mysteron plane of reality has only a small angle of incidence with our own. As creations that are slightly more likely to exist than ourselves, they might perceive us as aberrations: blots on nature, subnormal creations that offend their dignity. We find them incomprehensible because we can’t conceive of a universe that’s more real than ours. Their instinct is to replace us with corrected versions: humanity with the flaws inherent in being "less likely" creations removed. Mysteron constructs therefore become, in their eyes at least, the “real” counterparts of our own less-than-real selves.
How’s that for a perspective on our favourite enemies?
Doc Denim - hi there! - I'm trying to download the necessary software to view the presentations in that link of yours, but at the moment it keeps crashing, and I've no idea why. I'll come back to you on this one if I may.
Bye for now - back soon
DocBrown
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DocBrown
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:46 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 05/05/2004
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greetings all!
Well, it really seems to me that it the old chicken and egg thing - which came first.?
But really, since time is unilinear ( at least, in this universe, as far as we can tell) that things have to evolve at least one time, until we are (or anyone else is) technologically capable of 'time travel' (which is unlikely) before anything can happen to go back and change things - so there has to be at minimum, one 'true' timeline - until someone starts messing around with it. Then things get interesting.
I have an excellent quote about this from one of CJ Cherryh's books, and I will dig it up and post it later!
As to tales of the fantastically twisted - I have none in mind - I happen to think there's so much of potential interest in the 'real' world (meaning, as far as CS 'canon' as presented in the series) there's no real need for me to poking about into the probabilities of others - though I kind of drag them into mine from time to time. (I have years of fan-fic scribbles ahead of me without even thinking about it!)
Gotta run!
Doc Denim
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DocDenim
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject: Originally posted: MSN Forum 05/05/2004
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Quote as promised: taken from CJ Cherryh's Gate Of Ivrel: (the Gates being time warp passages, of course.)
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By law, there was no return in time. It had been theorized ever since the temporal aspect of the Gates was discovered, that accidents forward in time would hve no worse effect than accidents in the Now; but intervention in backtime could affect whole multiples of lives and actions.
Until someone, somewhen, backtimed and tampered---perhaps ever so minutely. The whole of reality warped and shredded. It began with little anomalies, accelerated massively toward time-wipe, reaching toward the ends of Gate-tampered time and Gate spanned space.
Time rebounded, indulged in several settling ripples of distortion, and centered at some point before the over extended Now.
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Anyway, as the stories go (and it's a quadrology, to date) things are rather muddled and full of paradox - but the ideas presented about how time itself might behave, and how responsible time-travel capable beings might run things always struck me as rather sound. It's a great series of books, very Siobhan approved.
So, don't ever go back in time, only forward, seems to be the moral of the story.
Ciao!
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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