Life Span

[Marion]

A very basic question for everyone.
How long do you think Scarlet could live for?
Assuming the retrometabolism doesn't desert him, what sort of life span is he looking at?
All ideas and comments welcomed.

[Kambei]

Well technically, aging is due to the constant breakdown of the body at a cellular level until it eventually wears down to the state where it cannot renew itself effectively. If Scarlet's retrometabolism works at the cellular level, as it must to repair damage sustained through injury, then it could be argued that he could be immortal, or until the retrometabolism wears off.

[RhapsodyAngel8]

If retrometabolism is perfect (ie no subtle cellular degredation creeping in and accumulating gradually over the decades/centuries), then I think I would probably agree with Kambei; immortality would seem to be the likely outcome. It is a sobering thought, though, and would have to place an incredible mental strain on him over the passing years – something I would be loathe to burden him with (but good stuff for fanfic ). Are we given any indication of just how perfect retrometabolism actually is when it has to be used so often (not just in general cellular maintenance, that is)? As Scarlet isn’t a Mysteron or a normal mysteron-controlled construct, might there be a possibility of retrometabolism acting slightly differently in him?

I have a feeling that it was suggested elsewhere on the forum (was it Hazel’s suggestion?) that he might age very, very gradually – as to be hardly noticeable? So, perhaps, the passing of one hundred years would only age him by a year (or something similar), so, if he died at the ‘human’ equivalent of 75, he may live for another 4500-odd years. Something I have wondered (if retrometabolism isn’t 100% perfect and there is a slight ageing process), is whether or not the degree of injury (and thus subsequent retrometabolative demand) would affect his lifespan at all – a sort of inverse proportionality between severity of injury and long-term life expectancy.

I know the question of whether or not he will die ('really dead!') when the Mysterons are finally destroyed has been raised in fanfic (I’m thinking of two stories in particular that suggest totally different answers to that, although there may well be more). It is certainly an interesting one.

It may be a basic question, Marion, but it’s still a poser!

[hazel]

RhapsodyAngel8 - Yes, it was my suggestion. I originally intended it to be a bit of technobabble in SIQ, but decided against including the scene.

My original thought was that he would age by about one day per calendar year. I didn't base that on anything in particular, other than a vague notion that nothing is perfect so retrometobolism probably isn't either - it just seemed to be a convenient number. I also have in mind that over the years, he finds out how many major regenerations are necessary to keep him in good health. Haven't actually decided on the number, yet.

I suspect that the answers to all the questions about Scarlet's lifespan, the reliability of retrometabolism, whether it can be passed on to future generations like other physical characteristics, etc., etc., will be the same: whatever sounds plausible, and fits the requirements of the fan fic!

[Captain Indigo]

Kambei's reasoning is similar to my own (as discussed here. I don't think that Scarlet can die of old age, but quite possibly wouldn't be able to cope with immortality.

Am I allowed the shameless plug of my own fanfic where I dealt with the issue?

[Shades]

I'm gonna stir the waters here a bit

Something I heard about was that as DNA replicates, it either gains or loses a 'cap' on the end of the chromasomes (like the rattles on a rattlesnake tail) I can't remember the exact wording of the article, but when the cap limit is reached, that DNA can't be replicated any more. When that happens, the organisim dies. It's also part of why adult cloning doesn't work too well, the cloned animal only has part of the lifespan of it's original.

What I'm getting at here, is if retrometabolisim in organics is simply accelerating/enhancing repair and cellular replication, then what if the reverse is actually in effect? Because it's using accelerated cellular replication, it's speeding up the DNA capping/removal of caps, it's shortening his lifespan.

It makes sense in a way, aside from Captain Black all the agents so far have been one time use only. Picked for a mission, remade for the mission, sent off and that's all. Why waste energy on an agent that you're only anticipating to use once by effectively giving them immortality?

[chrisbishop]

Very interesting point! And one to add to the list, I believe...

I think it's all down to how exactly retrometabolism works exactly; what it uses to work, what it actually does to the body, what it affects. Was it Scarlet's DNA that was affect? I can't remember the exact wording from NCS, but I think Doctor Gold mentioned something about 'sub-atomic level'...

What kind of energy makes the retrometabolism work? One of the references book - the Chris Drake, Graeme Bassett's one, mentions that Scarlet's body is 'like a living solar battery', and that it accumulates energy through the cells - storing it for eventual use. As sucn, he would have access to a nearly unlimited energy source... If such a theory should be acceptable.

There is also the question as to know if there is still a link between Scarlet and the Mysterons! What exactly happened when they replicated him? If he was still alive, and they copied his will to survive - making that will the trigger to his own retrometabolism, then he has very little to compare himself with the other replicates. If THEY were dead when replicates, when the Mysterons 'shut the signal', they simply cease to work. If they shut the same kind of signal in Scarlet, then his own persona returned, and took its rightful place. The "I don't want to die" last thought he probably had when he was Mysteronised, being copying as well as the rest of what makes him who he is, now became an integral part of his new powers - which would make them totally independant from the Mysterons.

Now, I don't believe that retrometabolism is flawless. Nothing is, not even something that comes from the Mysterons. They are certainly not flawless, and they proved it more than once, so it's likely that their much vaunt power to 'reverse matter' is also as flawed.

[Doc Denim]

Greetings all! (Yes it's been far too long!)

Shades has brought up a couple of interesting points:

Something I heard about was that as DNA replicates, it either gains or loses a 'cap' on the end of the chromosomes (like the rattles on a rattlesnake tail) I can't remember the exact wording of the article, but when the cap limit is reached, that DNA can't be replicated any more.

Yes - these 'caps' are called telomeres and they do put a limit on how many times cellular DNA can be replicated - I won't go into that, but a quick google search can fill in anything an inquiring mind might care to pursue about it.

The point about this mechanism (perhaps) hastening Scarlet's demise is an interesting thought. However, it is also true that dysfunctional telomeres lead to uncontrolled replication - I seem to recall reading that this is a part of what cancer is all about and another quick google search confirmed that.

So - IF one is prepared to accept that retrometabolism has some genetic basis - then it could be possible that the Mysterons have adjusted Scarlet's DNA to allow for speedy recovery after something dire has happened to him.

It could certainly be turned into a bit of plausible pseudo-science for fan-fic purposes - either way!

(BTW - I personally don't happen to subscribe to a genetic basis for Scarlet's abilities, and in fact rather objected to Dr. Gold's proposal that NCS Scarlet's genes had been compromised at a subatomic level, merely because genetics happens at a molecular level and not a subatomic one and he really ought to know that....)

'Nuff said for one post....

Doc Denim

[Captain Indigo]

Yes - these 'caps' are called telomeres and they do put a limit on how many times cellular DNA can be replicated - I won't go into that, but a quick google search can fill in anything an inquiring mind might care to pursue about it.

The point about this mechanism (perhaps) hastening Scarlet's demise is an interesting thought. However, it is also true that dysfunctional telomeres lead to uncontrolled replication - I seem to recall reading that this is a part of what cancer is all about and another quick google search confirmed that.

Ah, you speak of the Hayflick Limit and have thus brought up a point that I hadn't previously thought about. I shall have to think about that one

That said, you've also mentioned my counter-argument of so-called 'immortal' cells, where they do not experience telomere shortening and therefore do not 'age' - some cancerous cells do exhibit this, the best example being HeLa cells.

At the moment, I'm considering all possibilities - especially Shades'...

What I'm getting at here, is if retrometabolisim in organics is simply accelerating/enhancing repair and cellular replication, then what if the reverse is actually in effect? Because it's using accelerated cellular replication, it's speeding up the DNA capping/removal of caps, it's shortening his lifespan.

[Intensity Angel]

I've got a theory that eventually everything dies. It might be over a matter of days, month, years, centuries, milleniums etc but everything and everyone dies.

I think that maybe after a period of time, Scarlet's retrometabolism slowly starts to degrade, not drastically, but slowly like recovery times increasing and such, eventually fading out when he is really old. It's like with normal people: we age. I think while it would prolong his life, he would die of very very old age.

[Skybase Girl]

It's been a while since there was any activity on this thread, so I thought I'd revive it.

I am currently writing my first Fanfic based on the original series ( yes, never in a million years did I think that would happen! ). It's intended to be a follow-up to the events in Marion Woods' wonderful story "Valediction". I'm therefore trying to be true to her take on Scarlet's world and the characters. For the record, this is being done with Marion's full permission and approval, but I hadn't expected that following in the footsteps of the master would be so daunting!

If you've read "Valediction" (and if you haven't, you're missing out on a treat ), you'll know that it's set in a time when the characters are all getting older and Scarlet is having problems with the fact that he's not really visibly ageing at the same rate as his friends. I was perfectly happy to continue with this premise for the purposes of my story, but it got me thinking about the whole ageing thing once more.

I've never been really comfortable with the idea that Scarlet remains frozen in time and I'm not really sure why. It may just be that I've always concentrated on the human side of him and because I'm a bit of a wuss, I thought he had enough to cope with just living with indestructability. I did touch on this subject in a forum post back in 2007, but I realised I hadn't come up with a firm hypothesis that worked for me and that I really should do, for the sake of any future fics I write, be they NCS or the original series.

There has been lots of discussion on the forum over the years about how retro metabolism works and how Scarlet's body would deal with it over a long period of time. Since his altered DNA has not changed anything his body might have suffered before the alteration took place ( in NCS, he has retained a metal pin in his leg as a result of a break), I wondered how it actually works on a day to day basis. Is regeneration only needed for healing purposes, or does it go on all the time? Maybe his molecular processes only need to speed up when the cells have become irreparably damaged as a result of illness or injury. If that was the case, his body would behave like every other human body on a day to day basis . Cell renewal would gradually slow as it would for anyone else . (Hope this makes some scientific sense- biology wasn't my best subject back in the dark ages of my schooldays.)

This theory would suggest that retrometabolism would return his body back to the condition it was in at the time of the latest mishap, not back to when he was first Mysteronised. It would mean that he would age along with everyone else, although possibly at a slightly slower rate. What would happen when he got really old, I'm not sure. Other people have suggested that constant regeneration would actually limit his life span and I must admit the thought of a one hundred year old body being repaired is a bit horrific.

I have checked out what Doctor Gold's conclusions were in NCS and basically it's all rather woolly. But he does say that Scarlet is "genetically retro metabolizing", which rather suggests it's a continuous process. This rather blows away my theory and would support the idea of him not ageing. But then "retro" means to go back, so you could say if it's a continuous process, why wouldn't Scarlet's metabolism eventually return his cells to babyhood? That doesn't seem to be happening.

I haven't gone down the road of thinking how much retrometabolism is controlled by the Mysterons and I know this has been explored in other threads. My own feeling is that it's not. The only time Scarlet seems affected by, or has communication with the Mysterons, is either on Mars, or when their energies are especially strong. This would suggest that they have little control over his mind or body for the most part and that physical regeneration will happen on its own.

I like my theory because it makes me happier about Scarlet's lot in life, but I'm not sure it makes much sense, scientific or otherwise. I may still be sitting on the fence for a long time to come!

[Captain Indigo]

This is one of these topics where everyone has their own personal take on the matter, and a scientific argument can be made for lots of the differing points of view.

From the point of view of Scarlet's psychological well-being, I quite like the idea of the retrometabolism only kicking in when he needs it, and that he would age (and hopefully die) normally. For me, though (sick, twisted individual that I am), I, and have presented arguments for immortality, and it completely screwing with Scarlet's mental health eventually.

Shades' argument about retrometabolism being life-limiting because of the Hayflick limit was something I had never considered before. It's a very interesting idea to pursue if anyone felt so inclined. I don't right now, but I suppose I might come back to it in the future - a 'what if' scenario, perhaps.

Tragically, we can't give you a definite answer. It's something you need to resolve and be comfortable with, no matter what universe you write for. I was personally quite pleased that NCS dealt with retrometabolism in a little more detail than OCS (and generally agreed with me), so you have a little more canon to work around than the OCS writers, who have pretty much free reign when it comes to this question. Because I'm a scientist, the science has to work for me. As long as I can explain why my theory works, I'm okay with it. As soon as I find some hole, I have to pick at it until it's back to solid science, then try to find something to stitch things back together.

That said, I generally don't try to look too closely at the science of someone else's story. I'll save that for snarky episode reviews instead

[Marion]

I can't compete with scientific explanantions... (I was thrown out of chemistry at an early age for being the person most likely to blow the school up) but I did say originally that this was all assuming that Scarlet's retrometabolism didn't desert him - and although I accept that there are reasons why it might, I simply refer you to the oft-quoted get out clause 'The Mysterons have powers we cannot hope to understand'.
All I can add to this really is my own somewhat muddled thinking on the point, which has sort of evolved over the years, but is generally tailored to serve the plot of the story it appears in.

In 'Valediction' I had Scarlet thinking:

Still uncertain at the time of the full implications of his retrometabolism, he’d been speculating fearfully on his future: would he age along with contemporaries, fated like the Cumaean Sibyl, to be immortal without eternal youth or would he remain as he’d been on the fateful day of the car crash? Either way he had seen nothing except a future devoid of companionship ahead of him – as his retrometabolic abilities set him aside from his friends.

As Indigo says, I think this dilemma is something that fanfic can use to try and bring home the mental horror of Scarlet's existance as much as the car chases and explosions do with the physical side. I think the idea that he would continue to retrometabolise and age - albeit slowly - is too horrible for words, so I prefer that he stays as he was when he was first retrometabolised, although that wouldn't be easy for him either.

In 'Deserts of Vast Eternity' I sort of hinted that there was a way Scarlet could end it all, if he couldn't stand it any more:

He coughed and sat up in the bed, knocking the book he’d been reading last night onto the floor. He winced at the sudden throbbing ache when his feet hit the floor and his back twinged as he bent to retrieve the book. But that was nothing to the sharp pain that made him gasp in shocked surprise as his left hand closed around the spine.
He threw the book onto the bed and examined his palm. Two jagged and puffy scars ran diagonally across his hand, right across from his fingers to the base of his palm.
“How the hell….” he began, and then the memories flooded back.
Fighting against the urge to collapse into madness, he looked again at his left hand; slowly the wounds were healing, the puffiness had subsided, yet the pale-hued, smooth skin of the scars did not disappear. Scarlet frowned, he had no scars – anywhere - retrometabolism removed every sign of injury. But, he felt instinctively that it wasn’t going to remove this one. There was no sign that the hand would ever be free of these scars.

and then, in an unfinished story, I have written the following conversations between two descendants of Scarlet's many years into the future and after the Mysterons have been 'defeated':

“I remember, not that long ago he told me he’d found a few grey hairs and it seemed to have far more significance for him than it did to me, at the time. Since then, as you can see, his hair’s gone completely grey. It’s like reality finally remembered he was there and hit him with all the arrears of the years he’s escaped, in double-quick time.”
“Yes, I have to say it was a shock to see him when we arrived. He’s always looked… so young.”

I don't know if that makes any sense, but I do try for some sort of consistency and although I may be mean to him in my stories, I hope I'm not sadistic with it....

[adam blue]

Yeah, it does make sense. I'm not sure weather the NEW Captain Scarlet ever thinks of that or not. He had never said. It's one thing that always got me. Would he age or would he just stay as he was until, whenever really. Like Wolverine.

[Skybase Girl]

I don't know a great deal about the X-Men universe, Adam Blue. My friend Caroline Smith (who wrote the brilliant Scarlet/X-Men crossover, "Extrapolations" - check it out on this website if you haven't already done so), knows much more than I do about the mutant world. But my belief is that in the X-Men world, there are a lot of mutants, so whether or not they age as humans do, they are certainly not alone.

Captain Scarlet is unique, so we are told. The imagination of fan fic writers may say differently! But it does seem that his lot in life is a lonely one, however long the life may be. You're right, New Captain Scarlet gave no more insights into the ageing process than the original series did. If it had continued, maybe that would have been addressed by the scriptwriters, although maybe they might have thought that the theme was a little heavy for children.

However, it didn't happen, so we hapless fanfic authors are left to debate and discuss and decide for ourselves!