Cloning

[RhapsodyAngel8]

I have been wondering – never a good thing to do – could one make a clone of Scarlet at all (this has been buzzing round in my head for a bit – a potential plot bunny, perchance?). I would imagine that by 2068, the technology would be in place to allow efficient human cloning to occur (regardless of the murky moral issues surrounding this procedure). Granted, Scarlet may no longer be defined as ‘human’ – OCS being more of a Mysteron likeness and NCS having had his DNA altered on the sub atomic level – so the technique may be a non-starter in the first place.

If the production of such a clone were possible, could ‘it’ have his powers of retrometabolism? My own thoughts on the latter point are that it would be more likely for this to occur with the NCS Scarlet than with his OCS equivalent, since we are led to believe that the post-mysteronised NCS Scarlet still has the original Scarlet’s body and therefore, I would imagine, suitable nuclear material (unless the sub-atomic change is too drastic). I suppose it depends on what the 'source' of his retrometabolative power actually happens to be.

If cloning is a distinct possibility, how ‘much’ of Scarlet would be required to allow the creation of such a clone? Would just a few of his cells – if that, even – be sufficient to allow reproductive cloning (or a more advanced technique) to occur? If so, this raises the possibility of his capture by agents of nefarious individuals/governments for the extraction of such biological material. Such a cloned individual would, I imagine, be highly sought-after, regardless of any associated health problems that cloning techniques may produce (then again, if retrometabolism was found to be ‘cloneable’ in this sense, perhaps those problems would be self-correcting). A virtually indestructible soldier / assassin would be a formidable weapon.

Of course, one of the biggest downsides would be the time taken to produce a fully-grown, and thus functional, clone - a wait of some twenty years to reach adulthood from initial reconstructed egg (based on current techniques).

I know this thread probably brushes close to the one discussing organ donation / blood transfusion etc., but, as it is, in essence, another ‘Scarlet’ that is being dealt with, rather than another distinct individual as a recipient of ‘part’ of Scarlet, I thought it may be different enough. Please forgive me if this thread has already been discussed elsewhere – I hope I’ve not missed anything in my trawling through the topics.
I would be interested to hear what other people think.

[Marion]

The technical/scientific aspects are beyond me, I'm afraid. I cheated when I did a 'clone' story and used a 'Mysteron enhanced' machine that cloned grownups... Naughty me.
I tend to think along the lines that Scarlet is unique - what happened was a million to one chance - the sort that come up 9 times out of 10 in fiction...
However, being unique means that whatever he does - have babies, get cloned, donate organs - the retrometabolism doesn't travel. Otherwise they'd all be doing it and making Spectrum officers indestructible or billionaires immortal.
That's just my opinion though.

[Kambei]

When I read your post, Rhapsody, I was reminded of a Judge Dredd story that appeared 30 years ago in 2000AD. A mad (big surprise ) scientist tried to clone himself using experimental equipment to accelerate the growth of the clones from cellular to fully grown adult in a few hours. Each time he tried, he created a monstrous mutant, each time worse than the last. They were also psychically linked to him.
There was also an episode of Highlander in season one (I think ) where a mad doctor (are any of them, apart from Doctor Fawn, sane in fiction? Was doing experiments on people the try and find a shortcut to cure diseases. He then gets his hands on Duncan MacCleod, an immortal. Put the two ideas together, and there is some fan fic in there somewhere.

I am stuck on two crossover stories at the moment. One Doctor Who/Hellraiser and one Captain Scarlet/Doctor Who, so I can't see me using the above combination any time soon. Please feel free to use it.

[RhapsodyAngel8]

However, being unique means that whatever he does - have babies, get cloned, donate organs - the retrometabolism doesn't travel. Otherwise they'd all be doing it and making Spectrum officers indestructible or billionaires immortal.

I see what you mean there, Marion, but I was only thinking about exact clones of Scarlet himself – not the possibility of other Spectrum officers or billionaires (I agree with you about the issue of babies or organ donation). It’s a difficult one – but I would imagine that there is something more than mere changes on the cellular level that determines Scarlet’s ability to retrometabolise. Perhaps there is also some underlying neural factor, or some trace Mysteron ‘footprint’ that is unique to him alone. As such, his retrometabolic ability certainly wouldn’t travel through conventional means... unless there is a Mysteron influence perhaps; that may be the only way to overcome that problem.

I cheated when I did a 'clone' story and used a 'Mysteron enhanced' machine that cloned grownups... Naughty me.

I don’t think you ‘cheated’ at all – I have to admit to having a very similar idea myself (I must check out your story to make sure I don’t inadvertently step over what you’ve already done [if I do ever get around to putting anything down, that is ] – might I ask its title?). One of the things that got me thinking about all this was the episode from DS9 (‘A Man Alone’) in which a Bajoran creates his own fully-grown clone only to murder him and implicate Odo. A special growth tank was used and one sees another of his clones in its fascinatingly gory growth state. In the CS timescale, though, I am sure that this would still be way beyond the scope of conventional human science. Certainly, in ‘Shapeshifter’ – one of my favourite NCS episodes – we’re told that the conversion of random atoms (“atoms waiting to be told what to become”) to organised matter re: copying a person’s so-called 'atomic code’ to produce a fully-functional individual, is way beyond the scope of science at that point in time; it takes Mysteron interaction to achieve the goal of a Scarlet ‘clone’. Even then, despite his DNA showing him to be ‘Scarlet’, he is cold to the touch, as Destiny remarks.
To pull it off, I think the technology would certainly need to be Mysteron-enhanced in some way to be able to speed up the process and achieve it without adverse effects:

A mad (big surprise ) scientist tried to clone himself using experimental equipment to accelerate the growth of the clones from cellular to fully grown adult in a few hours. Each time he tried, he created a monstrous mutant, each time worse than the last. They were also psychically linked to him.

That’s very interesting, Kambei – thank you. It’s certainly food for thought! The unstable mutant idea is a compelling one – limited life expectancy would be one of many major problems (just look at Dolly the Sheep). I shall have to ponder this one, I think... Good luck with your cross-over stories.

[Marion]

I'm sure you'll do a much better job of the cloning process than I did, RhapsodyAngel8. I deliberately left it vague because I think that's one useful aspect of the Mysterons having 'powers we cannot hope to understand' - in my case it means: I don't even have to try to understand how/why things can happen, as long as I do enough to suggest the facts.
My 'clone' story was from 2003 and is called 'The Ghost in the Machine'.
http://www.spectrum-headquarters.com/fanfic/ghost_in_the_machine.htm
There was a sequel written in 2005 - Valediction - which drew on aspects of the earlier story, although the cloning part of the plot wasn't why I wrote it.
http://www.spectrum-headquarters.com/fanfic/valediction.htm

some trace Mysteron ‘footprint’ that is unique to him alone

I think that's the best explanation I've heard of the nature of his retrometabolism, RhapsodyAngel8! Whatever they did to him when they recreated him after the car crash is what gave him the ability to survive - and unless any child or recipient of his organs had experienced the same, I don't see how they could have that ability.
Hypothetically speaking, perhaps if a transplant patient 'died' on the operating table just as the organ was being transplanted, that might kick start the retrometabolism... ? But once the organ was established in the new host, I think it would conform to that body and lose its ability to recover.
An actual exact copy of Scarlet? I don't know... I rather shirked that question in my story - coward that I am.

[Intensity Angel]

A clone is an identical copy of the original. Well, you think about it, bacteria make clones of themselves all the time as they divide. Cells divide via Mitosis to provide an exact copy: a clone. We're at the point where we could start cloning wolly mammoths!! If you ask me, I suppose captain Scarlet can be cloned even if he is part human, part not.

[RhapsodyAngel8]

Good to see you again, Intensity! I can see what you mean with the bacterial analogy, but reproductive cloning is not the same (or as simple) as inducing simple mitosis – for an example, check out the principles behind Dolly along with the associated complications (although, it may well be that, in sixty years from now, techniques will have improved greatly to allow regular mammalian cloning to occur without such problems) – we’re not quite there with mammoths yet ! Anyway, I don’t want to enter into a biological discussion of cloning techniques per se - the forum is not the place for that.
My query here was not just whether it would be possible to clone Scarlet in the first place (a debatable point in itself), but, if it is possible, could one clone a Scarlet with the same retrometabolative abilities as the original. My feeling – echoed by Marion - is probably not, as his Mysteron ‘footprint’ is highly unlikely to be transferred through such procedures – I doubt that it would reside in his DNA alone but would be an integral part of the ‘whole’ person in some way.

I deliberately left it vague because I think that's one useful aspect of the Mysterons having 'powers we cannot hope to understand'

Ah, yes – those Mysteron powers. I agree - their vagueness certainly proves very useful in fan fic – in fact, I’m counting on it! Thank you for the links to your stories – I shall indulge!

Hypothetically speaking, perhaps if a transplant patient 'died' on the operating table just as the organ was being transplanted, that might kick start the retrometabolism... ? But once the organ was established in the new host, I think it would conform to that body and lose its ability to recover.
An actual exact copy of Scarlet? I don't know... I rather shirked that question in my story

This is certainly an interesting thought and I concur with what you say about any effect only being short-lived. As for an actual ‘exact’ copy of him – hmm – a tricky one; I don’t blame you for shirking it! In the pure sense, no, I don’t think it would be possible; his ability to retrometabolise is a key part of him, and without it... well, it just wouldn’t be the Scarlet we know and love (or hate... depending on one’s point of view, that is ). The pre-mysteronised Scarlet, perhaps... but even that would depend on how much the ‘mysteronisation experience’ changed him. This is open for one’s own interpretation, I think.

[Intensity Angel]

Wouldn't the retrometabolism be written in his genes. We know that the mysterons had messed with him. But have they messed with his DNA. Chances are they have so his body would accept the higher level of metabolism. But then again, what caused the retrometabolism to manifest itself. Why on earth would mysteron agents require this? I think, and this is just a calculated guess so don't bite my head off and snarl, that somehow the mysterons control their agents through their blood in some way, like liquid technology, a bit like controlling a computer. If somehow that connection was broken then the retrometabolism would manifest itself as a conquence of that broken connection. Now too cloning, I reckon that, as a clone is a identical copy to the original that a clone of Scarlet would possess his capabailities but would probably mentally be a lot different from Scarlet: he might not have a british accent, you never know. Environmental factors have to be faced.

[Kambei]

Now too cloning, I reckon that, as a clone is a identical copy to the original that a clone of Scarlet would possess his capabilities but would probably mentally be a lot different from Scarlet: he might not have a British accent, you never know. Environmental factors have to be faced.

Agreed. I think it is safe to assume that the Mysterons somehow scan the memories and personality of the original and 'programme' them into the copy, with a new overriding Mysteron personality over the top of them to maintain control. Either that or just the memories are 'downloaded' with a Mysteron personality. This could explain the difference between what we are told about Scarlet being the life and soul of the party, and his rather gloomy personality after he recovers from the Car-Vue fall. He still had his memories, but what 'made' him Paul Metcalfe no longer existed in his mind. I know we are discussing this aspect of him in another thread, but I think it is more relevant to this discussion.

As to the nature/nurture argument, a clone would probably be a blank slate, just like a newborn baby, unless you were capable of programming the mind instantly as the Mysterons seem to be capable of. You would need to take the clone and teach it at least the basics of both written and spoken language, then educate it.

With the environmental factors, you delve deep into the nature/nurture argument. Arguments about the soul aside, if you take two clones of the same person and raise them in juxtaposed environments, will they maintain the personality of the original, or will they develop disparate personalities and world viewpoints? Three extreme examples of this would be:

1) Clone Mohandas K. Ghandi and teach the clone that war is good and might is right.

2) Clone Adolf Hitler, put him with a stable, loving family and teach him that conflict is bad, and that multi-culturalism is the best way

3) Clone Quentin Crisp or Oscar Wilde and bring them up to believe that homosexuality is against nature

As I said, these are just extreme examples of the nature/nurture argument that have been floating around for decades. Is it possible to make the clone different to the original, or is the basic personality written into the DNA? Would the re-programming cause a mental breakdown?

I suppose that is is also relevant to the Mysteron reconstructions. How much of teh original person remains inside the mind, and if their mind and personality are particularly strong, would it be posssible for them to override the Mysteron conditioning, or would they have a nervous breakdown or even schizophrenic episode, or develop a dual personality.

[chrisbishop]

Heavy stuff!

Personnally, I believe that heredity (from whom you were born, and what is already inside you), can define you as equally as environment (where you are brought up, how you are brought up, by whom, and under what values). Two people can be brought up the same way and end up with totally different persona, and yet share the same values (or not). It is often the personal choices, his/her taste, and how we react to actions and situations that will decide of what the person will become. Sometimes, there is no rational explanation to why you would hate or like something. That's the freedom of choice we have - admittedly, we don't always, all of us, make the right decision... Nor do we act the same.

As far as Mysteron agents go, they don't really have that freedom of choice, do they? They will obey their orders, apparently without any discussion or second thoughts. Are they devoid of personality? That remains a question, though. I think they do more than simply imitate the personality of their originals; obviously, when they are copied, the knowledge the original have and their wits are also copied. It took Gabriel Carney's imagination for his Mysteron replicate to do the stuff he did (although he obviously messed up when he made that mistake that ultimately saved that security place in 'Codename Europa'). How about the Lunar Controller in "Lunarville 7"? If Mysteron agents are cold or unemotional, or simply 'copy' their originals, why then does he have a very human and irrational reaction when SID refused to obey him, and he lashed out in frustration? Where did that actually come from?

[RhapsodyAngel8]

I think, and this is just a calculated guess so don't bite my head off and snarl, that somehow the mysterons control their agents through their blood in some way, like liquid technology, a bit like controlling a computer. If somehow that connection was broken then the retrometabolism would manifest itself as a conquence of that broken connection.

Don’t worry, Intensity – I won’t bite your head off and snarl . It’s a valid point, and an interesting one. From my understanding (gleaned from the pages of the Drake / Bassett book), the Mysteron control signal is via the mind, not the blood. If an agent fails, that signal is simply shut off – they can no longer retrometabolise, and thus, die. The fact that electricity can block the signal would seem to suggest (in my opinion, anyway) that the signal is received neurally, not via the blood. I wrote a flash fiction in which a somewhat misguided mosquito believed that she would gain Scarlet’s retrometabolitive abilities by partaking of a blood meal from him, but, despite the fact that she was a genius among the anopheline hordes, I do not personally believe that she could have attained this goal – I don’t think that the blood would carry any specific Mysteron trait at all. It is suggested that Scarlet's ability to retrometabolise, despite receiving no Mysteron signal to do so, lies in the fundamental desire to survive expressed by his strength of will when he fell from the Car-Vu.

Wouldn't the retrometabolism be written in his genes. We know that the mysterons had messed with him. But have they messed with his DNA.

I don’t think it would be written in his genes – if that were the case, then it would likely be heritable, and, for that matter, ‘cloneable’ and I don’t think this would be the case. Of course, this is my own personal opinion. From my understanding, the changes Scarlet underwent were not simply to do with an alteration in the base sequences in his DNA, but something more fundamental - we’re told that NCS Scarlet’s changes are at the sub-atomic level, not the molecular one. Regarding OCS Scarlet, we’re told that the Mysterons use raw energy to create duplicates and that the duplicates are ‘given’ the power of retrometabolism. It isn’t suggested (at least I can’t find a reference to this effect) that the duplicates are altered genetically to enable them to retrometabolise. As I mentioned before, I think it is more the legacy of the original Mysteron footprint (coupled with his strength of will) that triggers Scarlet's ‘special’ ability to retrometabolise. As Scarlet’s clone wouldn’t have gone through the experience of Scarlet’s unique ‘kick start’ procedure (when he broke free from Mysteron control at the Car-Vu), I don’t think the clone would have this ability.

Personnally, I believe that heredity (from whom you were born, and what is already inside you), can define you as equally as environment (where you are brought up, how you are brought up, by whom, and under what values). Two people can be brought up the same way and end up with totally different persona, and yet share the same values (or not).

I agree with Chris on this one, Kambei – the outward appearance / character etc. is defined by a combination of inherited factors as well as environmental influences. If Scarlet were to be cloned, I believe that the clone would have its own unique personality (although it may also mirror certain facets of Scarlet’s own persona). Of course, if the clone were Mysteron-induced... well, anything is possible.

As far as Mysteron agents go, they don't really have that freedom of choice, do they? They will obey their orders, apparently without any discussion or second thoughts. Are they devoid of personality? That remains a question, though.

Also a very interesting point – I have often wondered about Black when he apologises to Symphony as he is about to irradiate her in ‘Manhunt’. He says that the Mysterons also have compassion, but might this also suggest that, on occasion, scraps of the original person’s humanity could sometimes ‘leak’ through the Mysteron control? After all, we are told that Scarlet’s mind lay dormant within the brain of his doppelganger, prior to the Car-Vu incident.

[Marion]

Not that it has much to do with cloning, per se, but I think Black's original personality does show through sometimes - as when he 'spares' Symphony and the crew of Flight 104. It doesn't happen often though and sometimes he is perfectly ruthless and kills without a qualm.
That does make me believe that the Mysterons are using some sort of mind - or neural - control.
The only other Mysteron agent we see retrometabolise is the former Captain Indigo, who has to be killed with an electron rifle to put him out of action. However, we don't know what happens to either of the models in 'Model Spy' - Gabrielle is captured at the party and Helga vanishes in the car with Black - but who knows what happened to them after the episode finished. Maybe Gabrielle was transported too? The Mysterons may have further use for them... I mean Black might have a cosy little harem somewhere...
Even if there was a sure-fire way to clone adult humans (a big IF) I still don't think any clone of Scarlet's would be able to retrometabolise - and maybe that's because the Scarlet we see in the show is - for the most part - already a clone?
For me, the fact that the Mysterons did what they did to him and he escaped their control - the only one we see to do that, apart, in some oblique way from Major Gravener - means that he is unique, and I believe he would stay that way.

[Intensity Angel]

How about the Lunar Controller in "Lunarville 7"? If Mysteron agents are cold or unemotional, or simply 'copy' their originals, why then does he have a very human and irrational reaction when SID refused to obey him, and he lashed out in frustration? Where did that actually come from?

Perhaps the Mysterons can alter the amount of control they have over their agents. Please don't set the dogs after me but looking at how different agents act, I feel that the Mysterons utilise a person's strengths, skills and mind etc to their own advantage. Captain Black for example. The Mysterons act through him and on some ocassions he seems to be under the Mysterons' influence much deeper than on other ocassions. Like the episode 'Manhunt'. Black makes some blunders. This leads to him nearly getting caught. could it be that the Mysterons allowed part of Black's humanity to take partial control: his own intellectual thinking processes to find a way of dealing with the situation. If this is the case, then the Mysterons tried correct this fault, they did tell him to head back to the Centre. However when it became obvious he wouldn't find a way out, they took full control and got their agent out of his predicament, hence Symphony Angel was used as a decoy. Now in the first episode, Captains Scarlet & Brown are mysteronised. Brown is clearly under a full influence so to say, however, I don't think Scarlet truly was, that the Mysterons' used his mind and skills so he would find a way out of the situation. We hear Scarlet's voice when he talks to Black which to me suggests that Scarlet is on some slack but not enough for him break free so to say, and this combined with Blue's fatal shot, led to Scarlet's humanity settling in and taking over. Now with the case of the Lunar Controller, the Mysterons knew he was loyal to them so could afford to not having him 'like a puppet on a string' so to say. please don't kill me for saying that Hence why we see him slash out. Out it be that the behavior of that agent is the behavior of the Mysterons prior to losing their solid forms?

[Marion]

Intensity Angel wrote:

We hear Scarlet's voice when he talks to Black which to me suggests that Scarlet is on some slack but not enough for him break free so to say

Its a good point, Intensity, but I think it is safe to say that all the Mysteron agents - at least those we know have been retrometabolised - speak with their own voices. The Mysterons make 'an exact copy' and that would include the voice, because if they started speaking differently it would be a dead giveaway, wouldn't it?
Black is the only one who doesn't speak with the same voice throughout the series. The voice we hear him using on Mars before he is taken over may have been his 'own' voice; it may be - as has been speculated - that the Mysterons are speaking through him and what we hear is their 'voice' when he speaks. It is certainly true that his voice is commented on several times by other characters.
One suggestion for why the Mysterons seems to lose control of their agents from time to time, has to do with 'interference' with their 'signals'. The electricity station at the top of the mountain breaks their hold on Flight 104, and perhaps the background radiation/ electricity generated by the Culver power station does the same?
The Martian orbit is ellipitcal, and it moves closer or further away from the Earth as it goes round the sun - so maybe that's why some messages don't get through as well as others - and why the Mysterons need Black on Earth to boost their signals from time to time? It might be that the Lunar Controller wasn't under such strong control because Black wasn't on the Moon, and that's why he was able to flip his lid at SID?

[RhapsodyAngel8]

Black is the only one who doesn't speak with the same voice throughout the series. The voice we hear him using on Mars before he is taken over may have been his 'own' voice; it may be - as has been speculated - that the Mysterons are speaking through him and what we hear is their 'voice' when he speaks.

That would be my supposition as well, Marion - I would assume that this is because Black appears to be different from the other Mysteron agents. For a start, there is no suggestion that he has been killed and retrometabolised before being ‘taken over’ – all we see in ‘The Mysterons’ is the normal Black, then, just seconds later, a Mysteronised Black seated in exactly the same position – no indication of a death and/or body; he simply disappears on his return to Earth. Besides – it would seem that he would be the natural choice as their mouthpiece, being the first individual they control. They always whisk him away if he comes too close to being caught, whereas other agents are expendable, giving an indication of Black's great importance to them.

Wandering back to cloning... ... this has got me thinking again. Might it be possible to clone Black (if we assume that suitable cloning technology does exist - I know, an enormous 'if') – and, if so, would one get a clone of Black free from Mysteron influence? Unlike Scarlet, the Mysterons appear to use his original body, not a duplicate. Or, might the Mysteron influence (including the powers they bestow) extend through such a process into his clone? Personally, I would go with the former possibility. I know that you have raised the possibility of breaking Black free from Mysteron control in a fanfic, Marion.